Episode Summary

AMP 18 EDITED Ver AUDIO [00:00:00] Not just parents, but coaches and teachers and people who are stakeholders working with children. They want what's best, but they kill the dream. Well, I see a lot of the [00:00:10] dads, it's, they're trying to get the kid to live the dream. They had that overly invested dad on the sideline. You gotta know your kid. A deeper level of knowing [00:00:20] your kid, creating that space for them to speak freely about how we're seeing more and more young athletes get repetitive stress injuries [00:00:30] earlier and earlier because of how hard they're hitting a singular sport early when sports end for a boy whose life was defined by his athletics. What's left of his [00:00:40] identity, and how do we help young boys and young men transition from athletics into the rest of their life? What does it teach us about resilience? If you're curious about the answer to those questions, you're in the right place. My [00:00:50] name's Tim Winkey. This is American Masculinity. In our 18th episode, we're here with Jamal Jackson Jamal's, a former student of mine who I'm so proud of, the colleague he's become. He works [00:01:00] as a school social worker and has a small practice helping young student athletes reach their potential and come through the other side of athletics healthy and well. He has a former D two [00:01:10] athlete and a clinician. We don't get many guys with that background in this field, so we're so lucky to have him and so lucky that he was willing to come on a share his insights. I'm really proud of what he's done with his work. [00:01:20] While you listen to the episode, think about what you would've liked to have known when you were in athletics, what you wish somebody might've told you when you transitioned out of athletics. Most little boys have that moment [00:01:30] where they think they're gonna go pro, or they love the game so much that they can just imagine doing it the rest of their life, and so few of us get to make that transition. So think about that moment for yourself. We'll [00:01:40] talk about it more at the end. Let's get started. Hey, Jamal, man, [00:01:50] thanks so much for coming on. Yeah, definitely. Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm excited. Been been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks, so I look forward to it. Yeah, man, I was excited to reconnect like [00:02:00] we were talking about when we met back up. Yeah, for sure. I, I, I love talking about sports and social work and, and the, the impact on people, because [00:02:10] oftentimes we glorify athletics and, you know, it's, it's like our athletes are warriors in the movie 300, but in all actuality, they're human [00:02:20] just like the rest of us. Well, and I think there is beauty in professional sports for the guys that are there, but I, I don't understand why so many guys treat their kids like they're [00:02:30] going to be there. They're not right. Most kids just need room to play. Yeah, for sure. Again, I, I think it's that, that glorification of, of what it means to be an athlete.[00:02:40] It's that, you know, Sunday night I'm on television and everyone around the world can see me playing. I'm making all this money. It's, it's the [00:02:50] idea of success. It's the idea that I've made it and that there are no problems. I've got money, I've got a career that I'm successful in making so much money that [00:03:00] I don't have to, my kids don't have to worry. My kids', kids don't have to worry. We've got generational wealth. And so when you have that other aspects of life, I, I feel like [00:03:10] they're just backburnered. Well, I think that's just an American perspective, right? If we've got money, we've got less problems. But that's very clearly not the case. Like how many NFL players go bankrupt within five years [00:03:20] of finishing their season? For sure, for sure. A majority of 'em do. And, you know, and I, I think that that goes back to. The foundation of, of the [00:03:30] glorification of athletics. When you do have those elite athletes, what happens to them when they're, they're transitioning from youth to, to high school, to [00:03:40] college, to the pros. People wanna talk to them about that sport, the investment. When they get to that college level, it's about that sport. It's not necessarily about the, the education [00:03:50] that they're supposed to obtain. It's about what can I do to make sure that my team is successful and we're able to win a national championship, go on to the next [00:04:00] level, become a professional athlete. Yeah. And then most of them don't, I've only worked with a few professional athletes, but I've worked with a lot of former [00:04:10] college athletes and it's always kind of sad to watch what happens with those guys afterwards because all of a sudden, once they stop playing, no one's got [00:04:20] patience for their interpersonal skills not being what they should. Like all of a sudden their girls mad at 'em and she didn't use to be. Yeah, for sure. That's an experience that [00:04:30] I think there's a lot of guys out there that can relate to, because once that athletic journey is over, many of those guys, they, they have to hit the reset button. [00:04:40] Mm-hmm. And, and many of them struggle to figure out how, how do I hit the reset button because this is what I've been my whole life. Like, what am I without football? And then, and [00:04:50] so I, I like to, to think of that as the, the cognitive distortion that all or nothing thinking like, well, if I don't have football, if I don't have basketball, if I don't have baseball, I don't have [00:05:00] anything. Oftentimes you have these, these athletes and they're, their focus is the, the X's and the O's. Mm-hmm. There isn't [00:05:10] someone there to. To help them understand how their athletic experience, what they've gone through. There are transferable skills within, [00:05:20] within that experience that you can apply to other aspects of life. And so again, when you're, when you're doing that all or nothing thinking, you can't see that other side.[00:05:30] You can't see that if you were engaged in team sports, like you can go into the working world and, and navigate that. Yeah. [00:05:40] Whether you did, whether you did well and with your interpersonal skills with those teammates, or you didn't, you, you know what you need to do if you didn't do it right. Mm-hmm. And, and you have that [00:05:50] skillset, it's there. Yeah. Um, it's just a matter of, of being able to, sometimes I think a lot of athletes need help on locking that key so that they can see the other [00:06:00] side. Yeah. Well, it's always, it's always really powerful too, because once those guys kind of, if they're working with me, it's usually like a six month to two year grind to [00:06:10] figure out what they're gonna go do. But then once they have it, the mission orientation, right, of getting stuff done, the like team dynamic of like, this is the goal, we're gonna go get the goal. And being [00:06:20] that kind of motivated person, which I think athletics is beautiful for teaching, right? Is we're all moving towards the same goal. We're all competing in the same lane. Let's go. They get traction [00:06:30] almost immediately. And so I, I think the main problem that I see with the athletics coming into the real world is that people think it's about how they throw [00:06:40] the ball or kick the ball when that's not what you're taking into the world. What you're taking into the world is the teamwork, the dedication, the ability to do the work, the ability to be a teammate. And that's hard to [00:06:50] translate if they don't have a direct skill to tie it to yet. For sure. I, and, and I think. Just hearing you talk about this, you're getting it on the, the back [00:07:00] end. Mm-hmm. You're getting those clients on the back end and I'm getting the clients on the front end. And so the front end, it definitely tells that story of that, that [00:07:10] psychodynamic approach. Mm-hmm. Of when, when you, when you think about your athletes on the back end and, and what's happening in the beginning, those, those kids that I work with, I'm going to the [00:07:20] NFLO. Okay. All right. Well, well, what's your plan? Well, uh, I'm gonna go to a big time division one college, and I'm gonna play there and I'm going to the [00:07:30] NFL and then the, the backstory as a, as a school social worker. 'cause I, I also do that, is I specialize in working with kids who are on IEPs. [00:07:40] Mm-hmm. And so oftentimes they have some social emotional challenges, academic challenges, and, and so in my mind I'm like, okay, well you wanna be a professional athlete. This is gonna [00:07:50] be an uphill battle for you. Like, are you prepared for that? However, that's not necessarily a conversation that you can have with a 10, 9, 9, 10, 11, [00:08:00] 12, even 15, 16-year-old. They're, they're not necessarily ready for that conversation. And so it's, it's more like you're, you're walking with them [00:08:10] and, and hoping to plant some seeds of understanding of, okay, well if you wanna be a professional athlete, you gotta make sure your reading is up the par. You [00:08:20] gotta make sure your writing is up the par. You gotta make sure that you know what it's gonna take. In order to get to that next level. And that's where the gap tends to be. And, and I [00:08:30] see that gap, whether it's be me as a school social worker, or me as a licensed clinical social worker working with student athletes. There's this plan, the end game is [00:08:40] there, but the steps that it takes to get there, that's what's missing. And I think there was one of the questions that you had asked about what can parents do? Mm-hmm. What does [00:08:50] that support system look like? I think there are times when parents, they want best for their children. Not just parents, but coaches and teachers. Mm-hmm. And people who are [00:09:00] stakeholders working with children. They want what's best, but they kill the dream. And it's automatically, oh, you're not gonna make it. Most, most people who [00:09:10] are playing sports, they don't make it. And it's like, true. But are we shutting the door on, on an opportunity for them? Or is, is that a nugget or a carrot for [00:09:20] them to then en engage in the other thing us aspects of life, such as being a good student, being a good human being, doing community service. Are we [00:09:30] closing the door on this thing that they're passionate about? That's not allowing us to be able to provide other meaningful opportunities for them so that they can succeed so that you're not [00:09:40] seeing them on the back end. And they're like, well, I, I don't, I don't know what I am. Well, I see a lot of the dads going the other way with it, where rather [00:09:50] than like just kind of nagging the kid out the whole time, which I see a good bit of too. It's, they're trying to get the kid to live the dream. They had that overly invested dad on the [00:10:00] sideline where they're screaming and yelling, the kid's gotta perform. Their kid's gonna be a pro. They didn't get to be a pro. How often are you seeing that these days? Uh, I mean, it, it [00:10:10] exists. I, I honestly have not had that experience as a, in the clinical setting. And, and I'm sure it it exists and I do have students [00:10:20] in my school setting that have gone through that. But you know that the athletics piece isn't as big of a focus. Mm-hmm. Because it, 'cause it's school-based mental health. [00:10:30] But I have seen it in, in other experiences such as reff and soccer and, and you know, how, how parents specifically dads get on their kids and, [00:10:40] and I'm, I'm kind of, uh, well, when I was ref, and this was a few years back, uh, a no nonsense. Type of referee where it's like, I'm, I'm gonna put your dad in [00:10:50] check. Mm-hmm. Because you need to play the game and you need to be focused on the game and not worried about dad cussing you out because you made a mistake. I know it's [00:11:00] there. I know. It's, it's prevalent. I think it's, it's hard because there's a balance and, and there we're, we're human and we want the best for [00:11:10] our, the youth, our children. And so I have that understanding. I can be pathetic about that. It's difficult to really pinpoint [00:11:20] like a reason, the, the reasons why dads feel the need to go there. Maybe, maybe it is a, I'm living vicariously through my child. Maybe it [00:11:30] is. The passion is, is so there and they see their kids so differently. I can relate to that as a father, just seeing my child, seeing my son [00:11:40] born, like that sense of pride was higher than. Any goal that I ever scored, any touchdown that I ever caught. Mm-hmm. Any [00:11:50] tackle that I ever made, I had 23 tackles in one game. Set the record. That that was the sense of pride for that was minimal compared to [00:12:00] my son being born. Mm-hmm. My son taking his first steps, my son running, my son laughing. You, you know that I, I I get it. I [00:12:10] think when you combine that with, you see your kid struggling or you see your kid not performing in the way that you feel or you've seen them do in the [00:12:20] past, I think, I think dads can get really emotional about it. And that's where you see that, that push and sometimes going overboard and, and [00:12:30] supporting their sons in sports. And what I do know that, that comes from that, and I have, I have worked with a few different clients is the burnout. [00:12:40] Mm-hmm. Um, the burnout of, of underperforming. Her not being able to perform, uh, because of that pressure. Uh, the burnout of, I've been playing since I'm, I [00:12:50] was six years old, I'm 16 now, and I'm riding the bench and I'm not getting in the game. And my dad is pissed off at the coach. [00:13:00] I'm annoyed with the coach too. I should be playing. And so it oftentimes it's, I feel like the clients that I've worked with are relieved to [00:13:10] get away, especially those, those clients who aren't in their junior and senior year, they sophomore year. That was kind of it. And then it was, it was time to move on and [00:13:20] find, find themselves outside of athletics. Well, and I imagine I've been pretty good about helping the dads. I work with [00:13:30] Calm down. And figure out that line between teaching critique and pride. A father's pride is a powerful thing. Your kids need to see that you have [00:13:40] that for them. Being a teacher is a powerful moment for any parent. Um, but particularly dads, like most of the dads that I work with, they're more excited about a 4-year-old than they're a baby because [00:13:50] they know they can teach the 4-year-old something. Yep. Right. Okay. And then there's that kind of protective instinct of trying to get your kid, particularly your son ready for a world that's going to be kind of [00:14:00] rough on them. I think part of it is you gotta know your kid, and granted, most people do know their kids, but what I'm talking about is a, [00:14:10] is a deeper level of knowing your kid, creating that space for them to speak freely. Mm-hmm. Like, that's, that's gotta be there. [00:14:20] I'm talking about you're turning the TV off. No electronics. You, you guys are just there. Father and son, mother, father and son, [00:14:30] and then the, the whole family or whatever that may look like, you've got to hold that space. And it starts, it starts in the beginning. I definitely am, am going through [00:14:40] my own experience with my own son and my wife, and that's trying to figure out, well, what does this look like? And I say that, to give you the example, my son [00:14:50] came home and he said, my teacher was mad at me. Okay, well tell, tell, tell us what happened. You know, he's three years old, so, [00:15:00] you know, in a 3-year-old way, he was able to share like that, you know, he was not being kind and he was taking toys away from someone else. So the, the teacher [00:15:10] made him go sit out and it's like, okay, bud, I'm glad you told me that. I'm, I'm so glad you told me that because now I can help you, I can [00:15:20] coach you through what we need to do. I can reach out to the teacher and communicate that, Hey, I heard he had an issue. I'd like to talk [00:15:30] with you about it, so that we can work through that situation together. Which is a lot better situation than as a parent finding out, you know, when you drop off, Hey, your son was doing [00:15:40] this. Like, so being able to hold that, that space allows kids the opportunity to be able to, to share with you mm-hmm. [00:15:50] To not fear having that conversation, to not fear that they're going to be judged by the mistakes or the things that they did wrong. Because just like [00:16:00] reading, just like math, just like social studies, it's routine. When you go to school, you do it over and over and over [00:16:10] again. Mm-hmm. And with our children, we gotta do the same thing with their, their social and emotional and their mental state. We have to do it over and over and [00:16:20] over again because they're going to make mistakes. And so holding that space, having that time and giving them that space that they know that it's, [00:16:30] you're not going to be judged. I need you to talk to me. Mm-hmm. I need you to share with me. Yeah. That parental, uh, like I'm a big believer that the only place that non [00:16:40] unconditional love it really often exist is from a parent to a child and not even the other direction. Right? Like, that is the, that is the whatever you do, [00:16:50] whoever you become, you're my kid and I love you. Mm-hmm. And I think that as long as that remains visible to the kid. It's a lot [00:17:00] easier for the father to have boundaries. It's a lot easier for the father to have consequences. It's a lot easier for the father to teach them. Like there's a, there's a great part in the boy crisis discussing mothers and fathers [00:17:10] engaging with a kid that got in some trouble where like he went out, he went somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. There was some dangerous people around. Things escalated and he got away [00:17:20] before things got really, really bad. But it was bad enough that the mother was just freaked out and like talking about how he'll be safe by never ever doing anything like that [00:17:30] again. And the dad was like, well when, what are the things you saw along the way? Like, okay, you decided to go there. Not the greatest choice. What's the first thing you noticed that this wasn't okay?[00:17:40] What's the second thing? What's the third thing? And basically helping him build those exit ramps. I think that's one of the things for me anyway, that athletics does. Did as a kid, it [00:17:50] gave you a. A space to see consequence. It gave you a place to see success and it gave you places to win and lose, [00:18:00] which I think everybody in life, to be a whole person, you've gotta win and you've gotta lose and you've gotta know what both of those things feel like. Well that, that kind of takes me into like a question about [00:18:10] how athletics have changed since you and I were kids. Like we're in our, I'm in my forties. You're about the same, right? Yeah. I'm 40, 41. Oh man, you just newly butted forties. [00:18:20] So when we were kids, at least where I grew up, everyone played some sports. Mm-hmm. Like you had to, there's, this wasn't an option. Like if you were a [00:18:30] kid, even if you weren't that athletic kid, you had to go try a team sport and you had to go try an individual sport. Mm-hmm. Even if you hated it, they made you do it. Mm-hmm. And [00:18:40] now that seems to be happening less. Where they're not making kids who aren't inclined to be athletic to go try the sports. Am Am I reading that correctly? Is that what you're seeing? [00:18:50] Yeah. I, I think, you know, we're in that age of electronics. Even my son, even, even though the screen [00:19:00] time, he's, he doesn't get a ton of screen time, but to see him navigate that tablet is something that I know our generation, we weren't doing, [00:19:10] and I believe Game Boys came out probably about fifth, sixth grade. I, I don't know, but it's like, you know, that that wasn't around when we were two years old. [00:19:20] And so, you know, I think with technology that was a game changer. I don't know. I think it's, it's very different in Colorado. [00:19:30] We're not a sports state. And by that I mean, and I think I, when I, when we talked the first time we kind went into this kind of compared it to Texas. [00:19:40] Yeah. Texas, California, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, you know, North Carolina, South Carolina. When you think about [00:19:50] schools like that, sports are, they're, they're in their educational system. Mm-hmm. They're ingrained. And you don't see that in, in Colorado [00:20:00] as well as you don't see a ton of universities with, with college athletes all over the place. We don't have a lot of colleges here like, like they do back east and [00:20:10] down south in, in California. And so, so the funnels just aren't there. They're, yeah, they're not there. So I feel like our kids, the current youth today, their [00:20:20] ability to see what it takes to, to get to that, that level of competition. Sense of pride that [00:20:30] places back east and down south have with athletics, we don't have that here. And so I, I will say that, you know, even down south there, there [00:20:40] probably is a, a drop off in, in the amount of, of, in athletes that are participating compared to, you know, the, the, the nineties, the eighties, the seventies. [00:20:50] Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm sure they're still seeing it. But when you have this well-oiled machine and you see these success [00:21:00] stories, and for the most part, I feel like in some of those other states, not just the sports, but the academic side of things is [00:21:10] ingrained in, in those children from elementary school. Um, and so it's, it's not as big of a challenge I think in Colorado, us not [00:21:20] having that. I've seen a lot of talented guys, a lot of talented guys, guys, that, that. Should have gone to division one schools [00:21:30] that had all the talent in the world and it just wasn't enough because there was something missing. Well, that, that kind of con brings up [00:21:40] one of the, like other big concerns I have is that it feels like when we were kids, everybody played. Mm-hmm. And now if you play, [00:21:50] you've gotta play, like your intention is to be in the divisions. I've got a friend, his kid's great, he's athletic, he's like six or seven and [00:22:00] he's playing soccer almost year round. And that's not how it used to be. Right. Used to play like you played baseball in this season, you played football in this season, maybe you had some downtime to go do whatever else you were [00:22:10] gonna do. And like we had, we had talked about before around how I remember seeing an article somewhere that I can't find anymore about how we're seeing more and more [00:22:20] young athletes. Get repetitive stress injuries earlier and earlier because of how hard they're hitting a singular sport early. But it also seems like that's kinda [00:22:30] what you have to do now if you wanna make it to whatever. 'cause that's what the people that are getting there are doing. Am I reading that right? Yeah. I mean, I think that's the message that, that [00:22:40] folks are trying to send out. I also think that, you know, sports even back in the day, but even more so now are so lucrative. Like you have these coaches that are, [00:22:50] that's all they do is coach, you know, and, and especially within the soccer world, you, you have like high profile coaches that coach youth sports that [00:23:00] move in from other countries and all they're doing is coaching. Hmm. So it makes sense that they're gonna tell their star player, I want you to play [00:23:10] summer, fall indoor in the winter and spring and then get ready for, for summer. Like, and we're going year round. And if you don't. If you don't play all of [00:23:20] these, there's a possibility that you're not, you're not going to keep up. To me, it's, it's a business and it's becoming more of a business at the, at the youth level. And I [00:23:30] think for some, for some people, playing one sport might make sense, but for most it, it, it would be important to, to play a variety of sports [00:23:40] because you are seeing the toll that it's taken on our kids' bodies. By just focusing on one sport, you're, you're always doing the same fundamentals. Like [00:23:50] it's, it's, it's taxing the way that the frame that's always made the most sense to me that I try to guide, tie g try to guide dads towards is no matter who your kid [00:24:00] is, they've gotta go and play a few seasons of a team sport and they've gotta go play a few seasons of an individual sport. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't matter whether they suck at either of them, [00:24:10] they need to know what it feels like to hold the pressure of like, this is on you. You're alone, you're competing against everybody. This is what being on a team feels like where everybody's pushing towards the same [00:24:20] thing and they're winning and losing together. Like it makes me a little sad when I hear like the soccer stories is usually what I'm hearing now. More and more families are pulling away from football, like tackle football, which I think is [00:24:30] great, but I'm sure I'm gonna piss a few people off when I say I don't think children should be playing tackle football. I certainly probably got some head injuries playing. I wonder how smart I would've been. [00:24:40] But that seems like once they, if they're a really talented kid, one of those coaches you're talking about is gonna like, grab that kid and try to push that kid towards like [00:24:50] this almost professional level of sport as a child. I wanna go back to one of the, the, the things you mentioned really quick. You were talking about [00:25:00] families moving away from football and into soccer and there's, there's studies and reports out there that, that indicate that there are more head injuries and soccer than [00:25:10] there are in football. And that's, yeah. I heard that for the female athletes in particular, like female soccer has like, isn't it the highest occurrence of TBII, I'm not for or close, [00:25:20] but I, I know that it is, it's up there. It's pretty high. Yeah. Gotta watch those headers. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, and, and it's a competitive sport too, where mm-hmm. Where there's a lot of [00:25:30] contact and, and people don't have that understanding until they go to a game and they're like, whoa, okay, well let's see what this is about. Yeah. I always, I always recommend [00:25:40] rugby because rugby's contact and, and like all the injuries in the military that I saw for sports was flag football. Okay. And it's because when you play flag football, somebody gets hit, but they weren't ready to get hit. [00:25:50] Yeah. Whereas rugby, you're taught how to slow people down and stop them. It's not the like. Direct straight line, nine degree impacts that football has. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because [00:26:00] there are those kinetic kids. Like, I liked playing football as a kid, and if, like I'd had, if I knew what rugby was back then, rugby would've been just as happy for me. But just getting away from that, like I was [00:26:10] taught as a kid, use your head and not like your smarts, but like stick it in their stomach. Yeah. And this was at 10, like that's nothing good's happening [00:26:20] there for sure. Yeah. You're, you're taking me back on this one because all, all of the, the hits and the concussions and the shake it off and [00:26:30] get back in there and that was there for me as well. And I just think about what was the impact, you think about all the different studies that are coming out about [00:26:40] CTE and how that, how that's impacted not just one generation, but multiple generations. Mm-hmm. I think about my father, um, who integrated schools in the sixties [00:26:50] and, and he was that elite athlete going to, uh, Kansas State University. And just the experiences that I had with him growing up and, and what he went [00:27:00] through and, and, you know, you, you shook it off. Mm-hmm. And you know, when, when we think about like, those head injuries and, and going untreated and, [00:27:10] and not getting the support, you know, how it, how that CTE you know, it, it impacts that mental health, the anxiety, the depression, the headaches, [00:27:20] um, other physical ailments. I think the right balance is, is it's important for us not to generalize. And it goes back to really like, know your kid. Mm-hmm. [00:27:30] Know, know when you can and can't push their limits. Some kids aren't gonna be athletes and that's perfectly fine, but what, what else is there for them? [00:27:40] Mm-hmm. And for those guys who are athletes, what else is there outside of that athletic participation that, that makes them [00:27:50] whole? And if they are athletes and they're like, I'm a soccer player, or I'm a football player, or I'm a baseball player, maybe you need to push them to, to try something [00:28:00] else. Mm-hmm. And if it doesn't work, fine, but at least they tried it. Mm-hmm. At least that experience was there. But again, it all goes back to no know, [00:28:10] know your kid. Mm-hmm. Give them that space to talk to. You still set those, you can still set parameters. Mm-hmm. You can still say, [00:28:20] be firm and say, I know you love football, but you're gonna pick one more thing here. Here are two options. Or if you want to choose it, you can [00:28:30] choose it. But if not, I'm gonna give you two options and you gotta choose between those two. And, and we're going to, we're gonna have, at it, we're gonna figure out does this fit you? [00:28:40] And if it doesn't, that's okay. So it kind of comes to scaling choices for kids. Right. Like the For sure. Where I, I. I remember for a while there was [00:28:50] this minimalist kids movement where you, you were supposed to get rid of all your kids' toys, but three, and then that changed around to where now it's, you have kids pick a few toys for the day and then you [00:29:00] like lock up the rest of them just because the, the exhaustion of too much choice. Mm-hmm. And it sounds like the same kind of thing can be said for sports where you've gotta push your kid [00:29:10] towards some discomfort while leaving them room for feeling like they made a pick. They had some efficacy. And I guess the, the other thing [00:29:20] is, is a lot of the parents I talked to, we put all this on the parents, they can't do everything with it. So what is the integration of like coaches and like [00:29:30] how does a parent from the outside or a coach from the outside even look into a system and say whether that's a healthy system for a kid or not, what are the things that you would look for? I [00:29:40] think that it's important, again, starting with that foundation of knowing your kid, what kind of kid do you have? Do you have a kid that you're just trying to get them [00:29:50] active? Do you have a kid who's very competitive and they want to be challenged? And so if you have a kid and you're just trying to get 'em active, recreational [00:30:00] might be the right approach. If you have a kid and, and they need that challenge, then you might want to go that competitive route. Um, then the other things I think you have to factor in is [00:30:10] culture. What does that culture look like? Do you want them to be around a diverse culture or, or a, a different culture? Because, you know, within sports it, it looks [00:30:20] different. Mm-hmm. You know, you go play football, you're gonna have a little bit more diversity versus going and playing lacrosse and soccer, although it is growing. Um, and so [00:30:30] understanding that, that culture cultural piece, 'cause sometimes kids need to have, not just coaches, but teammates that they can relate to and that they have similar experiences [00:30:40] to. And, and that helps ease that transition into that. Well, and that diversity is so missed out here in Colorado. Like it's, I grew [00:30:50] up in Maryland and there was everybody around, and that fundamentally impacted how I moved through the world. And so out here I just see a lot of guys [00:31:00] who, you know, they're not like racist by any stretch, but they never had an opportunity to be around someone. Right. They never played a sport with somebody. They never did an activity with somebody. [00:31:10] And so, yeah, I think sport, and that's where I made most of my, like multi-ethnic relationships, was through sports. Because the social cliques were the social cliques. And those were usually like, you bond up [00:31:20] with people like you that I don't think that's racism. I think that's just human nature on a certain level. Mm-hmm. But all of a sudden when you take a hit for somebody, we're okay. Yeah. Yep. [00:31:30] For sure. That makes me think of, I don't know if you ever watched, uh, the, the show Friday Night Lights? Oh, yeah. Uh, that pit season with, with Vince and forget the other guy's [00:31:40] name, but they just kept, kept clashing and butting heads and until. He told him, you're my teammate. Took a couple hits for him and, and it was like, we're good now. So yeah. That, that, that [00:31:50] cultural piece is, is so important. Mm-hmm. You, you, you gotta have that and, and sometimes it's trial and error, but also it's quite frankly, even, even as a [00:32:00] professional athlete, let's say we have that elite athlete who's on that trajectory to be that professional athlete, you are rolling the dice, you're rolling the [00:32:10] dice, that you go to a good college where players getting drafted into the, the N-F-L-M-L-B or, or whatever professional [00:32:20] ranks you, you've got to be, you're rolling the dice on the coach, staying there and not being fired, or not moving on to a better job. [00:32:30] You're rolling the dice on your position, coach staying there, your position coach liking you, you're rolling the dice on not getting injured. [00:32:40] Because we, we have yet to really talk about how the, the, the impact of injury on athletes and how that impacts their ability [00:32:50] to get to class. 'cause when you're, when you're a college athlete, you are on a strict schedule during, especially during your season. You're up early in the [00:33:00] morning, you're going to watch film, then you gotta make it to breakfast. You only got 15 minutes, but it's gonna take you 10 minutes to get through the line and another [00:33:10] 10 minutes to walk to class. Mm-hmm. Then after all your classes are over, then you gotta head to practice where you're watching film. Then you're out on the field, and then you gotta go to dinner before dinner [00:33:20] closes at six 30 and it's already six 15. If you throw in an injury, like it's, you're, it's pretty much shot. Yeah. We see that a lot within the, the military [00:33:30] community and I, I think it's very similar in that. Your life is managed for you so you can do the mission right. And you see that at a lot of like collegiate level athletes and [00:33:40] beyond, where the reason why the team's times is structured so much is it's to make sure you got guardrails and you stay on 'em. And then the minute that there's an injury and you can't be with everybody [00:33:50] else, you can't make those things. You're not doing the same things as much as you were and you're slowing down. The isolation of that is brutal. It's absolutely brutal. [00:34:00] The amount of guys I see coming outta the military with injuries and just how isolating that gets and how quickly it goes is rough. Yeah, [00:34:10] for sure. You're, so, you're speaking my story, um, my junior year that, that was my experience and started out off as something minor and it, and it grew to something where [00:34:20] it took me out for a couple of games. Mm-hmm. And so just, you know, going through that, like there's, there's the mental side of it with, and you talked about isolation, so there's, there's the [00:34:30] mental side of it where. You're doing all this rehab, you still gotta go out to practice and, and then you still gotta go in the locker [00:34:40] room, get changed and try to go to the cafeteria. But the ability to do that is not on the same level as your teammates. You're a couple steps behind them. And so [00:34:50] there, there's that. I'm not the same person that I was before this injury. And there's the, how do I get back to what I was? 'cause I need to be [00:35:00] able to get on the field. I have a scholarship to protect 'cause again, and, and I'm pretty sure it's like this with the military as well. Mm-hmm. That's your identity. Who am I [00:35:10] without this? Well and without my team, without my sport, without the credibility of that, it gets hard. And so when you went into that and you, you survived that [00:35:20] and now you're working with student athletes and I'm sure you've worked with some that have come back from injuries, what do you tell them that you wish you'd have known when you were going through that? I use this for [00:35:30] not just athletes, but. But all clients that I work with. Mm-hmm. Grounding, it's important to be in the moment, you know, and, and you [00:35:40] mentioned it earlier, you talk about that anxiety. Well, anxiety comes from thinking about the past or thinking about the future and, and not being able to focus on the right here. And right [00:35:50] now it's, my verbiage is it's a season. This is, this is the season. And, and that season will come to an end. Now what do you do while you're [00:36:00] in this season? What does that process look like? What does rehab look like? Are you make, how, how do you make sure you're getting the most out of your rehab? You [00:36:10] can mope and you can complain and you can be sad about where you're at and it could impact your ability to rehab in the way that you need to. [00:36:20] So what are you doing to take advantage of this, to come back stronger? And I think it's important. Like I, it, I, I always, I ask the question, but I [00:36:30] always. Communicate. This is a question that you don't have to answer right now, but in the next couple of sessions, my job is to help you figure [00:36:40] out and put the pieces together for this plan. Mm-hmm. This short term plan. 'cause again, it's a season. It's, it's not, it's not the rest of your life, it's [00:36:50] the season and we gotta get through this season to move on to the next one. So some of it is bringing 'em back to the moment and where they're at and helping them have a plan for where [00:37:00] they wanna be. And maybe, depending on the severity of things, having a plan for how to let go of whatever it is depending, and I see, I see it from [00:37:10] a school social worker lens. Mm-hmm. I see it from a clinical lens and I see it from a parent lens. Mm. I [00:37:20] wholeheartedly see it from a parent lens. The example I can think of is, you know, my, my son very active. And I see him, he's, he's about to [00:37:30] fall. I know. He is getting ready. He's gonna fall hard and at age. 12 months. 11 months, 12 months. 17 months, two years [00:37:40] old, two and a half. I'm catching him every single time I'm catching, I just, those hands. Yep. I got you, man. I got you. I got you. I'm gonna hold you up no matter what. [00:37:50] And just from all of the different professional experiences that I've had, there are times number one, 'cause I'm old. Mm-hmm. Number two, [00:38:00] because like, he needs to learn. Yeah. You gotta fall down. And I can't, I can't pick him up. And it's a, come on man. [00:38:10] Get up. You got this. You, you gotta stand up. You gotta get up. Dust yourself off. Tell yourself you got this. Take a deep [00:38:20] breath. Do you need a hug? All right, I got your hug now. Keep going. Whereas I, I do see, I, I do have clients, I do have students who, with [00:38:30] parents who you, you see that over nurturing. Something happens. They're, they're right there. It's like, yeah. Those parents that are calling the person [00:38:40] they interviewed with for a job at 16. Yeah. Yeah. We used to get those calls when I was working with a veterans transition. 'cause so many vets would give their kids their benefits mm-hmm. To start college.[00:38:50] Mm-hmm. And then you'd have parents like trying to call professors. I was like, this isn't elementary school. That's not how this is gonna work. That's like supposed to be a grown adult right there. [00:39:00] Right. So it sounds like some of it is also just giving places where kids can fail, that it's safe enough for them to fall. Not protecting, [00:39:10] you're not always catching 'em, you're not always surrounded with pillows, but you're gonna react differently to a one-year-old barreling through a room than you are a 4-year-old barreling through a room. And there's [00:39:20] definitely phases and there's, so, there's definitely the, where you gotta release a little bit more rope. You gotta, you gotta let 'em fail so [00:39:30] that they learn. It's terrifying. You can, it's terrifying. But in all actuality, you're gonna learn more from, they're gonna learn more from failing [00:39:40] than they are winning every time. Well, it's like we were talking about before we got on about the different projects we're working on where sometimes you just gotta put something out and try something, even though you know it isn't as good as it [00:39:50] can be, because that's how you learn to get better. That's, that's real. That's real. I, I, I like how you did that too. I love it. Definitely an educational moment for myself. So [00:40:00] I'm right there with you trying to do this. So I guess the, uh, kind of. Final question is, is, you know, you're working with young boys consistently, [00:40:10] you've got a, like an immediacy and, uh, like intimate view of so many young boys and young men's lives. What do you wish every young man knew about masculinity [00:40:20] and success before graduating high school? The idea that as men, um, and, and this is gonna sound very masculine, and, and I'm all right with that. [00:40:30] As men, I feel that, that we are protectors For me as a, as a young child, like I, I heard, you know, the man's supposed to be the protector at that [00:40:40] point in time. Protector to me meant that if somebody messes with my family, I'm gonna assert my physical aggression. Mm-hmm. And it's like, no, it, it, [00:40:50] that's, that's, that's part of it. You're a protector to, you know, there's a physical presence of protecting, like, so that's important. But there's [00:41:00] also the mental and and psychological presence. Of being a protector as a man. And so by mental, I [00:41:10] mean being fully aware and attentive to, you know, those internal and external thoughts, feelings, wellbeing of not, [00:41:20] not just yourself, but those people that you surround yourself by. Like they, they need to know that that mental presence is there. Psychological for me is the same thing. [00:41:30] You know that? Mm-hmm. That fully engaged and connected to those people that are important in your life. I always argue that the physical protection piece [00:41:40] becomes less and less what you need to do in a successful life. Mm-hmm. Like, it's important to know you can, right? Mm-hmm. I'm a big believer everybody needs to [00:41:50] get punched in the face, lose a fight, and win a fight. That's an important lesson for everybody to learn. I don't even think that's gendered, but the older you get, the more people are looking to you for protection [00:42:00] from the world. Yeah. Which cost in America that costs money. And success is contagious. If you are around unsuccessful [00:42:10] people, you are more likely to be unsuccessful. If you are around successful people, you are more likely to be successful. And I think that's hard for guys coming outta high school, coming outta [00:42:20] college, coming outta the military is you, you've got the guys you're close with. And you know, I'm not saying give up those guys. I'm not saying abandon your friends, but if you've got something [00:42:30] that you wanna be doing and they're disruptive to that, you gotta check them and you gotta go get around People that are gonna help you with that help you be a better man, help you be a better [00:42:40] provider, help you be a better protector, whatever that, whatever the roles of those that you're choosing for yourself are. You gotta go be around people that are gonna empower that. When I think about [00:42:50] success, definitely it, it is surrounding yourself with those, those individuals who have that same grind mm-hmm. To, to want to be successful. And, and [00:43:00] that does come with some sacrifices and. Tightening up your circle, that's important. And, and sometimes, and, and I've had kids that I've worked with, there's that guilt [00:43:10] of, well, if I'm not friends with them, then am I a bad person just because I want to better myself? Like, does this make me a bad person for not wanting to be friends with them? And it's [00:43:20] like, no, not necessarily. And like sometimes you gotta make a sacrifice to, to get outta life what you're trying to make it. And that's okay. It doesn't mean [00:43:30] that you love somebody any less or that they're, they're not your people. For me, between all the moves between the military and college, I moved about a dozen times in 10 years. And [00:43:40] the only thing that gave me has given me peace on all the relationships I've had to pick up and put down is that they're in seasons. You know, that was the time for that friendship. That time is over and hopefully they'll come back around [00:43:50] and we'll be able to reconnect at some point. But yeah, it's hard. Like we were talking about earlier, before we got on, when we're talking about creating things and doing things, you need to be around both, right? You need to be around [00:44:00] people that are pushing you for your grind, but then you gotta be around people that just like you, that just like, like you jokes, like what you bring to a room and you gotta have that balance. But it's hard to find for sure, [00:44:10] especially in this day and age where it's just life is different. You know? You think about the, the cost of living, you know, salary is pretty much staying the same and, and trying to, to [00:44:20] diversify how you make your money as a, as a clinician, that's, that's a hard thing to do. Well, I think that's just it, right? If you're not rich, everybody's needs a side hustle, which is very telling.[00:44:30] Mm-hmm. I really love a lot of the perspective you bring. I think it's really wonderful the way that you talk about parenting as you've gotta know your kid and you've gotta pay attention to the environment [00:44:40] and you've gotta help both navigate each other. The idea of a parent being a bridge between the kid and the world is a pretty solid one. So thanks for sharing that, man. I hadn't thought about it that way before. [00:44:50] Thank you. I, I appreciate it. Yeah. I, I, I love to, to share my perspective and, and just sit down and talk with people who have different experiences and to [00:45:00] hear about the differences as well as the similarities. 'cause we work with a completely different clientele, yet some of the, the things that, that our clients [00:45:10] and we as clinicians experience are, are still very in alignment. Yeah. Some of it's just the shared experience of your gender, of your country, mm-hmm. Of your culture. [00:45:20] By seeing it in so many places, it makes it easier to accept it. But it also, you get to see people doing it different ways and you get to see these things express, so it gives you [00:45:30] more choice. Like the, I'm a big proponent of get yourself out there. Get yourself around as many different kinds of people as you can, because it's the only way to really know yourself. Because if you never around [00:45:40] anybody different, if you're never around anything different going on, you don't even know what questions to ask yourself. Much less fine to answers. It's my favorite part about this job, and that's what I love. I get to go and [00:45:50] like, hear the deepest parts of people's lives, and I've learned so much about myself by having to take on some of those questions. I can totally relate. I mean, for me, just getting into the [00:46:00] field of social work and mm-hmm. You know, doing that reflection of yourself and being like, whoa, okay, so this, this, this is, this is where I'm at. I, I don't think without it, [00:46:10] I'm, I'm the same person that I am now. You know, when you do that deep dive of, of yourself and, and you unlock doors that you didn't even know existed, you look up [00:46:20] and you're like, whoa. And I've walked through that door. Mm-hmm. Here's this possibility. Here's this option. Let, let me figure out and see what this looks like. Yeah. [00:46:30] Kevin Hart started his podcast and he talks a lot about the door, behind the door. Mm-hmm. Like you see where successful people go in and you get through that door, but there's another door in [00:46:40] that room that you can't see until somebody shows you the door. And there's always another one. Like every door you go through, every door you open, every part of yourself, you explore. There's always another door in there somewhere. [00:46:50] You just don't. If you don't know where to look, don't worry. Be around. Some different people have some different experiences. You'll find it. There's always more to learn for sure. And this, this is, this is [00:47:00] where you get it right here. Doing all this work. And, and I, I think going back to the, to the athletics piece, it was easy to find it there compared to, to now [00:47:10] being on a, a football field, being on a baseball field, it was easy. There's a straight line goal. This is where we're going. Well, I suppose we should get into the [00:47:20] closing questions. Alright, because I've already taken about an hour of your time and we need to make sure we get you back to your boy. What is the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12? That remains true [00:47:30] today. I think it, it just goes back to that being a, the protector and, you know, although I didn't have the, the complete understanding of what it meant to be a [00:47:40] protector, I thought it was just the physical piece of it. I've grown to know that it is the, the, the other aspects of being present that that mental and that [00:47:50] psychological piece of, of just being present and, and nurturing that is being that protector. Yeah. A number of guys have come on now and [00:48:00] talked about that and the way you're describing it makes me think more about, like, my father, he wasn't a violent guy, he was a stoner, but we were around a bunch of bikers. There were [00:48:10] always violent guys around and it was never that my father was a victim or anything. He just wasn't a physically aggressive guy. But he was always like, if he was in the room, [00:48:20] he could make you feel safe as a kid. You were safe to go try the thing, you were safe to go, whatever, you know, you could run up to him. And he wasn't the softest dude, man, he was an eighties dead. But [00:48:30] there was that protection just by having him around that emotional safety that, that security of like, that's, that's the rock of the moment. And I think there's a, there's a beauty [00:48:40] of broadening out what we think of when we think of protection to that. Because there's so many guys that aren't, they don't have the capacity for violence, right? That's not the kind of protection they're gonna bring to the world. And [00:48:50] not everybody has to, but you gotta bring something. What's your lane? What are you bringing in? How are you making people feel like whole and secure? I, I, I can relate to a lot of that with my, [00:49:00] my own upbringing and, and have my dad in the household. And, and then that, that presence. And, and I think it, it sticks out for me even more so, [00:49:10] because when he passed away when I was 16, it was just gone. And, and it's that isolated feeling and it's like, oh man, like I'm stepping into this role and [00:49:20] I don't even know what role I'm stepping into. Yeah. There's no, it's, that's, yeah. And security. That, that roof is that security and it's gone. That's a hard thing to [00:49:30] lose. I'm really sorry that happened to you. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's, it's definitely something where, you know, I've, I've found a way to turn it into to my passion. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:49:40] in, in working with, with youth who have experienced loss and not just loss of a parent through death. I mean, there's, there's a variety of, of forms of loss, whether it's [00:49:50] incarceration, whether it's separation, and so you're not living with both parents anymore as well as variety of other things. And so the experience of [00:50:00] loss is something that, that always stays with you. It's. Some days are better than others. You, you grow to learn how to, to navigate it and manage it as best as you [00:50:10] can. And, and I've, and I'm fortunate enough to have found my passion, uh, in working with youth within my own experience of loss. I think we've [00:50:20] both been lucky enough to figure out a way to make money with our passion, which is incredibly rare as a gift. So many people don't get that. So the next one is, tell [00:50:30] us about a time where pursuing masculinity has hurt you. I think that that would also relate to, you know, me losing my father and mm-hmm not having that consistent male [00:50:40] role model in my life. And then trying to figure it out. That consistency was what I, what I saw that I was passionate about sports. So I'm [00:50:50] looking at professional athletes, I'm looking at the entertainment world as the foundation of what it, what it looks like for me to be a man. Mm-hmm. I'm holding onto some of the things that I [00:51:00] learned and experience from my dad being there and saying, putting all of that together and saying, well, this, this is, this is what I need to do to be a man.[00:51:10] This is how, this is how a man handles situations. You lead with that, that hardened mentality. You know, you put those, those feelings aside, 'cause [00:51:20] feelings get in the way of you being the man. And so yeah, that, that definitely was, that was a process that I think a lot of men can relate to, whether they're their fathers [00:51:30] were in their lives or are in their lives still, and, and they. You know, have their own kids or they have their own nieces and nephews that, that they're trying to [00:51:40] instill that, that fatherly figure knowledge and, and, and teachings too. Yeah. I think that's the, the struggle with when boys [00:51:50] lose close men is the way that men are in the world is generally not complete. Those athletes, the movie stars, [00:52:00] the people we look to, that's the persona they're bringing to the world to survive and do well in that world. But you don't get to be with him around the dinner table while he is laughing. You don't get to be around him when he's messing up [00:52:10] and watch him make a recovery. You don't get to be around any of that. So whenever that happens, the amount of shame that a lot of guys get, because they make those [00:52:20] mistakes, but no one's shown 'em how to recover, no one's showed 'em, that, that to, to live is to make a mistake. And so for you, it sounds like that, like that stoic kind of aggression and [00:52:30] persona was key for you early to survive. Without your father, and it took you a long time to kind of wash that. It was my armor. Mm-hmm. It was my [00:52:40] armor that, that protected me from all the bad, but also all the good. Um, yeah. Wall. Wall keeps everything out for sure. Needs a door. Need a [00:52:50] door. Yes. Yes. We, we gotta have a couple of doors and a couple of tees and, and things will be all right on the other side of that coin. Right. We'd like to go out on a [00:53:00] positive end. Okay. Tell us about a time when pursuing masculinity helped you, empowered you. For me, a lot of my experiences, whether good or [00:53:10] bad or, or intertwined, I've found that in making those mistakes and pursuing masculinity, those mistakes that, that [00:53:20] hurt me, I've learned from them. I feel that I've grown to understand what parts of that masculinity, the positive aspects of that [00:53:30] masculinity I need to take with me. As well as I, I really am grateful for becoming a social worker because [00:53:40] it, I challenge myself, I challenge some of the things that I was brought up with, um, in my life that exude toxic [00:53:50] masculinity, still make mistakes 'cause I'm human. But I definitely take some of those negative experiences and I've, I've, I've flipped a lot of 'em. I'm still a work in progress [00:54:00] to, to help me understand how I need to navigate through life. I think also with becoming a school social worker, having a son [00:54:10] has made me have to work on being better, for instance, so son was about two years old and, uh, we're like, well, we need some more stuff in [00:54:20] him for, we need some more stuff for him in the basement for him to engage in. You know, he had, he had a little slide, he had some toys, but he needed a little something more. And my [00:54:30] wife said. Well, why don't we get him a kitchen set? And automatically I was like, no, we, we don't need a kitchen set. Like he, he doesn't need that. We'll, we'll get him a, a tool set [00:54:40] so he can play with some tools and he can learn how to hammer, hammer the nails in, screw the screws in, we're not getting the kitchen set. And she just kind of looked [00:54:50] at me and, you know, it was a couple of days that went by and, and I sat there processing and thinking to myself, I, I can, I can do a little bit with a [00:55:00] hammer. I can do a little bit with some, some screws and a drill, but I, I can get in the kitchen and, and make some pancakes and eggs and I can do a a [00:55:10] mean meatloaf. I can do some, some tacos, burritos. Like I, I have a, a variety of things that I can cook. And so why am I, [00:55:20] why am I in this toxic place with my son in a kitchen set? Like, why am why am I there? And, and so this [00:55:30] played out in my head for multiple days and so I, I went back to my wife and I said, I, I'm sorry. Like I overreacted. I wasn't thinking clearly about it. [00:55:40] Let's get him a kitchen set. And so we, we got him the kitchen set and he's, he's cooking up all kinds of stuff. He, I'm getting pie, hamburgers and french [00:55:50] fries and peas, and we're having a good time now. And now I'm hungry. Right? Yeah. For me, whenever that [00:56:00] voice pops out, I always think of it like, oh, that was my dad's voice, or, oh, that's my grandfather's voice. And what's given me some peace with that voice is [00:56:10] when that voice hit me. It was what was needed at that time. Like if you went to school, when we went to school as a boy who was playing with Haws as a boy who was [00:56:20] playing in the kitchen, you were going to get physically hurt. That was no joke when we were kids, at least not where I was at. Now, we're doing better about giving boys room, girls room [00:56:30] to do whatever it is. There's an expectation that people can make choices and Dave Ramsey's a person who cooks amazingly, and all the biggest chefs in the world are men. Yep. Right? Yep. [00:56:40] But that gives me some peace with it because it lets me both forgive myself for the voice being there and kind of taken over for a moment. But it also lets me give those old men that were doing their [00:56:50] best for me, some grace that, you know, that wasn't toxic. That was what it was at the time, and it's not that time anymore. That makes sense. And that's okay. That makes sense. [00:57:00] Because all those corrections come from love that came from them being a protector. Right. For sure. Never thought about it like that, that, that, that totally makes sense. Works for me, man. Everybody's gotta come up with their own [00:57:10] frame. Right, for sure. Trying to figure out how that voice plays in your head. There's plenty of guys where their dad's voices are just awful. Yeah. You know, you know. Yeah. Parent was abusive, parent was whatever. Not everybody can [00:57:20] do that. You know, it's important to figure out where those parts are you come from for sure. Oh man. Thanks so much for this. Definitely, man, I enjoyed this. This was fun, man. Yeah. I appreciate your expertise [00:57:30] and I'm sure that at some point, this documentary, yours is gonna be out and we're gonna have you on to talk about it, and it sounds like [00:57:40] maybe the end of the summer we, we put in some, some pressure on that a little bit. I, yeah, that, that would be some extreme. Oh, man, I, that, [00:57:50] that would be a dream come true. You just felt that in your chest, didn't you? You're like, oh, Tim, not this summer. It's not gonna be done by this summer. All right. Yeah. I, I wish that were the case. I know that, but [00:58:00] what I, what I can say is though I am definitely re-energized because there is a, an extreme level of passion in doing [00:58:10] this project. It, it's, it can be draining. And so, uh, my approach, you know, back in 2011 was I'm, I'm gonna knock this [00:58:20] out and I'm gonna work on this until it's finished. And it's like, no, this, this is gonna come in seasons two. Mm-hmm. Um, and this is the season to take that, that next [00:58:30] step, what that next step is, that remains to be seen. But, but it, it, the next step is happening. And, and I definitely will [00:58:40] let you know, uh, when that next step happens, as well as when it's completed. All right, man. Keep me in the loop. I'm looking forward to it for sure. Will do. Take [00:58:50] care. You too. And that's our conversation with Jamal Jackson. Thanks so much for tuning in. Let's go ahead and clear up a few things. So for the most part, we did really good this episode on the fact check, we [00:59:00] had five things that are worth clarifying that we had correct and are worth bringing some nuance to. Student athletes generally don't go pro. Only about 2% of any student athletes [00:59:10] move on to some kind of professional play. So the vast majority of us who played sport had that moment where we knew it wasn't gonna be our life anymore. That's why these transition conversations are so important. [00:59:20] Post athlete identity transition is hard. There's good data behind the depression and the struggles that happen with that when people lose that part of their identity. And it's worth building [00:59:30] out specific ways to help support that. The next one is specialization and burnout rates. So by having kids specialize so early, we are seeing an increase in injuries and we [00:59:40] are seeing earlier burnout in student athletes. So that is absolutely a factor and there's good data to back it up. We talked a little bit about head injuries. Football still leads in concussions and still a problem, [00:59:50] but almost all other sports have some risk. And soccer in particular for female athletes also tends to have some pretty consistent head trauma. The last one is, the biggest piece of [01:00:00] burnout for most student athletes is gonna be parental pressure. I say that here because if you're a parent listening, please remember that these athletes that you're coaching, that you're guiding, [01:00:10] they may not have your dream. Don't put your dream into your child in athletics. If you do, you're very likely to push them outta the sport that you want them to [01:00:20] love so much. So keep that in mind as you go forward and take that lesson out into the world for us, please. The three things that we got a little bit, I, I wouldn't say wrong, but need some clarification. Jamal said that Colorado [01:00:30] isn't a sports state. He meant for the pipeline. We don't have a lot of student athletes go on to college or go on to pro play, like let's say Texas does, or Alabama does. [01:00:40] But Colorado's an incredibly active state, and we love our sport here. We have a riot every time. One of our teams win, and we win a lot. We do pretty well out here. So student athletics is a big deal. Most [01:00:50] kids play sports. It just doesn't lead to that pipeline. We talked about CTEs and the multi-generational impact It may or may not have. We don't have good data on [01:01:00] CTEs from earlier generations. Unsurprisingly, we don't have brain scans of our grandfathers. We don't know what the impacts of those were from an academic standpoint. I will say most of the older guys [01:01:10] I work with that played sport have concerns about their cognitive function afterwards. That's just my anecdotal experience though, so it's worth mentioning that we don't have good academic data to back that [01:01:20] up. And the last one is, Jamal mentioned that IEPs often make student athletics more difficult. We couldn't find good data on that, but Jamal's anecdotal experience with that is worth paying attention [01:01:30] to. He's a dedicated professional who's really attentive to his students' needs, and that may be something to watch for. Just because we don't have broad data on it doesn't mean his experience isn't valid [01:01:40] and isn't useful to you. But we try to be as clear here as we can. So it was important to tell you. That's it. That's the facts For this one. At the beginning of the episode, I asked you to think about the lessons that [01:01:50] you wish you'd learned from your student athletics and what somebody might've told you. Now that you've listened to Jamal's conversation and expertise, what do you wish you'd known? Has it changed? And who might you [01:02:00] share this with to help them in their transition? Please take a moment, message me, share it in the comments. I think the more that we have these conversations and start these conversations publicly, the more young [01:02:10] men and boys will have guidance and the mentorship that they so desperately need. I think a lot of guys just don't know what to say in these moments. So maybe by sharing what you're gonna say, you'll help another guy figure out how to help [01:02:20] somebody else. Thanks so much for taking the time to watch. My name's Tim Winneke. This is American Masculinity, and we'll see you next week when we talk about building and maintaining grit. Talk to you [01:02:30] then.