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What your people want from you after their basic needs are met, they want you, like your presence, your laughter, the way you make them feel, those are why they picked you more than your ability to make money. What is up everyone? Today we have a super special episode of the Modern Founders Podcast and the American Masculinity Podcast put together. We are diving into what it's really like to be a young man in today's world.

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In today's podcast, we are going to cover everything from isolation and loneliness in young men to substance abuse, mental health, and the pressure young men face in today's culture. With that being said, we are going to unpack some of the biggest challenges young men face nowadays and what could be causing them. So if that sounds interesting to you, make sure to stick around to the end because you are not going to want to miss what we are talking about.

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Let's get right into it. Really what I wanted to kind of dive into today was talking about the younger crowd, younger men, and how we're showing up in the world today. I'm curious what your thoughts are around where we are as young men in society and specifically where our trajectory is going to go and all that.

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Where do you see young men today and where do you think we could improve and stuff like that? You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, no big questions, right? Start off with just a huge... Just existential dread at 20. I think you all's generation is... I'm watching it happen where you all get pinched really badly because all of the old scripts that my generation, my father's generation, my grandfather's generation really aren't going to be here for you guys.

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And you all know that. What I appreciate about your generation more than most is the awareness of it. But I think it's driving this really polar response for you guys where it's either I'm completely checking out of the system.

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If the game is rigged and there's nothing for me to do, then why should I try? Or there's this really big polar push for hustle culture where I'm just going to grind it out and I'm going to be the high quality guy. I'm going to be the one that beats the system and I'm going to get ahead of it. Yes, that's so interesting.

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And the dichotomy is so real because this is a personal story of mine. Because I feel like I fall more into the hustle culture side because of the entrepreneurship and everything. But it's so interesting because my cousin hasn't been working for a year or whatever now.

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And it's kind of the complete opposite of what you're talking about where you just fall out and you're like, I'm just going to go travel to wherever and just float around for a while. Do you think that has negative impacts on people? Both obviously probably have negative impacts. What do you think that is? Do you think that's a problem or do you think that's just the reality? If he's out traveling, he's on the better version of that than most.

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He's at least leaving the safety of his parents' space. He's going out and exploring. And if he's just bumming around where he's like out here in Colorado would be ski bum.

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Where you go up and you do work during the season and then just hang out and ski all winter and usually get stoned in between. I think there's something to that as long as there's new experiences attached, as long as your eyes are open to opportunities. I think the guys that are kind of hiding are the ones that I'm most afraid for.

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Interesting. Obviously you work with a lot of men in the therapy space. How long exactly have you been working in the therapy space for? A little over 10 years.

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What's the evolution you've seen come through the therapy space over the last decade? I think the first five years we were still really in that space where most guys coming in couldn't talk about how they felt. The vast majority of them would come in like that and the vast majority of them wouldn't come in unless a partner sent them. What I see now with younger guys is you all have some emotional language and you all aren't anti-therapy.

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You're just not sure it can help you. Whereas the guys before, like my generation, think that therapy isn't for them. That it's not going to help.

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I think that's a huge shift. I could see that. I could see that for sure.

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Do you think that therapy could benefit all people or all young men, let's say? No. No. No, I think there's a... Why is that? Because, man, right resource for the right problem.

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Therapy isn't the answer for everything. It's the answer for a lot of things and I think it can help. But depending on your problem, right? Let's say that you're struggling because you're trying to start a business.

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Yeah. You're probably better off putting your resources into an established business coach. Like somebody who's been successful in that space, right? Like don't take financial advice from a therapist.

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That's not our training, right? Right, right, right. But if it's that you've struggled with anxiety, depression, these things your whole life, then yeah, a therapist is probably the right way to go. Obviously, I've thought about this when I was putting together kind of the way I wanted to have this podcast.

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Therapy... Like being a therapist is kind of being an entrepreneur in and of its own. No? Would you agree or no? No. No.

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I think a lot of therapists aren't entrepreneurial. So there's a... Within the field, there's this idea that we can't make money, right? Like you go through graduate programs and they tell you that like, you know, it's so good that you're doing this work as though you're not going to get paid. And so this can be very entrepreneurial, right? Like I started a private practice right out because I'm a bit entrepreneurial.

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I have... Like our buddy Mark over at menstherapy.online. He's probably the most entrepreneurial therapist I know. But then there's plenty that just work in treatment centers that are more than happy to never deal with the entrepreneurial aspect that just want to paycheck in days off. And are willing to take like a lot less money to do it.

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So for you kind of being on the more entrepreneurial side of the therapy game, quote unquote, how was the progression like over time? Like in the first... Because like for me, I went to school and studied psychology. I wanted to be like a therapist. I thought I wanted to be.

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And then I got into the actual work it would take to be a therapist. I realized it wasn't for me. So like how was the progression for you over, you know, the last 10 years and even in your like graduate program and all that stuff? Well, so I got into it really late and came in kicking and screaming.

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Like at 19, I started college late. College took me a long time because I had a really poor high school experience. I had never read a book by the time I started college.

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And so I really liked the like behavioral science stuff. So I got an associate's in that. And then I got a sociology degree.

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But through all of it, at different points, people told me I should be a therapist. And I was like, that's dumb. I don't want to do that.

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And so I graduated with my undergrad in 05 during the big crash. Came back up to Denver with a sociology degree. The year I graduated with my sociology degree, it was the most popular degree handed out in the country.

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Really? And I came back to the city that had one of the highest per capita rates of college degree in the country. So I had a useless degree in a place where everybody had a degree. And there was no work for me.

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And then I go into the Air Force and I do intelligence work, which is about as opposite as you can get. It was all like computers and codes and stuff. And I hated that work.

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But what I liked was doing the like the family aspect of the Air Force, right? Like taking care of people, making sure the airmen had what they needed. And then I got into sexual assault response and seeing people in deep struggles. And it was during that that someone tapped me again.

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Like, hey, you're doing the wrong kind of work. You should be doing this. And so I didn't come to therapy until I was in my mid 30s.

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So it was a long winded way of. Let me ask you this because this just popped into my head. I hear a lot of different opinions on this.

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And when it comes to kind of your past and how you went about getting to where you are. Do you think that you would redo like, you know, the past and going as long as you did in the different fields and all that or no? No. Do you think that's a bad way to look at life is to like.

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Well, there's it's not useful. Yeah. Right. 

If we live in the could have been's. Nothing good happens for you. And for me in specific, the main reason why I was able to start my practice right out of grad school was because I'm a veteran.

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Like when I started up my practice here in Denver, there were only like three or four people that had served in some kind of uniform that were opening a practice that weren't at the V.A. or something like that. And so for me, that made it so I didn't really have to market much. Yeah.

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Like I didn't have like my background stands out. Differentiation. Yeah.

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And so I think it's more about taking your story and your background. And what is the like thing that was going around for a while in the creator space of like find your unfair advantage? I wanted to ask you this, too, because I've kind of struggled with this identity of only caring about like the business that I'm building. And that's like my whole identity and personality and everything.

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I wanted to ask you if that's a like what are your thoughts around that being unhealthy, healthy, a good place to be? You know what I'm saying? So it kind of depends on the guy. Right. Like for you, because I know you.

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Yeah. It's a little unhealthy. Like you are you are definitely entering the grind space.

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Yeah, for sure. There's nothing wrong with focusing for a year or two. Right.

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And anything worth starting is worth suffering for a little bit. And it's picking your suffering. What I see happen to guys like you, though, is that it's not for a year or two.

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Yeah. So like we had an episode with Kara and she's a certified financial therapist and we talked about money and young men. And what happens is money, the need for money continually rises through your life.

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So the money it takes at 20 to have what you need at that age is like half of what you need at 25 is half of what you need at 30. Right. And so it just ends up being this treadmill.

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And so if the only way to get there is to grind out 60 hour weeks and never see your lady, never see your friends, then you continue that path. And by the time you're in your 30s, all your reasons for grinding, you've forgotten. Like you don't remember like what you're sacrificing, why you're suffering.

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Or you've remembered and they're this idea instead of this actual presence in your life. Like I'm doing this for my people, but they're not in your life anymore. Yeah.

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And your life and their life changes. And more than anything, what your people want from you after their basic needs are met, like basic needs, right? Not, you know, the nicest thing in the world. They want you.

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Like your presence, your laughter, the way you make them feel. Those are why they picked you more than your ability to make money. Don't get me wrong, man.

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We're still men and like the expectation on us to provide is still there. But I think guys, it's very easy on social media to look at a guy with a private jet and think you need to be there by 25. Interesting. 

And that kind of goes into this next idea that I was thinking about is like the isolation that men in particular, not just men, but a lot of men feel like nowadays. And, you know, if you're building a business, if you're doing anything, really, there's going to be points where you're like feeling super isolated. You're away from everyone.

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I was curious, like, how have you seen that change over the years and where do you think that's at now and all that? I think entrepreneurship can be a great way to connect if you do it right. You know, there's that old adage of men bonding side to side. So we need something to do and we need something to relate to.

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Mark Manson talked about having like you've got your one thing that you can talk about for two hours uninterrupted and be happy talking about. If you get around people that can do that, you find the second thing they're into. Right. 

That lines up with you, but that means you got to be around people. And so I think the the big mistake is we use like the platforms like this, like this parasocial relationship the listeners are having with us right now. Or like, you know, you're on Insta, you're on Facebook, you're on whatever you're on and you're connecting there.

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But that's like the cotton candy of connection. Makes sense. You need some meat and you need some steak and potatoes in there.

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And so that's where getting to things like that, the old school things. And I think people are pushing against this now, which is nice to see. Like you guys, like guys under 25, a number of you are really pushing hard against that, like social media, like cotton candy connection.

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And they're going back to chamber of commerce meetings. They're starting up mastermind groups with other guys that are trying to do it. And the big thing is, is you're not like you kind of trick yourself into that kind of connection where you're like, oh, I need these people around to help me with my business.

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But really what they're doing is they're being people where you are that can relate to what you're trying to do. Like they don't know any more than you do. Right.

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But at least they're people that can understand like why this week needs to be a 60 hour week. Right. Or like the pain you're going through and all that different stuff.

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Right. Yeah, exactly. No, that's super interesting.

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That's super interesting. And do you think that like obviously you said that we're getting better kind of along those lines. How do you think other men that are kind of struggling with that can get into those rooms and all that stuff? By accepting that your place of excellence doesn't need to be a computer screen.

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So there's either there's kind of two types of guys that don't launch. They're the ones that like get really wrapped up in video games because it feels good to be good at something. Yeah.

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Right. And I'm not I'm not trash talking it. Like I was a top tier player on League of Legends for 10 years.

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There's a way better use of my time for that 10,000 hours for sure. But it felt good to like knock people around to feel like I was doing something well when I was struggling in other places. The other guys are just passive.

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Right. They're just like scrolling YouTube. They're doing games that don't challenge them.

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They're not in competitive games. They're just kind of like wasting not wasting but like filling time. Right.

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Right. I'm just filling time. I'm passively taking in content and that's kind of numbed out and dissociated.

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And the longer you do that the harder it is to take the friction of the world. And so just like this conversation between you and I has a little bit of friction just because it's social. Right.

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Not like because it's bad but just because of what it is. Right. And the more you insulate yourself away from that the harsher that feeling is.

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And so if you're one of those guys that's kind of just spending most of your time kind of passively taking things in you need to figure out ways to get yourself back into it a little bit at a time. And there's that window of tolerance that we've talked about in previous episodes where you need to find the right level of challenge where it feels like a stretch but not a break. And then like I've had clients that are so far into that cocoon that like talking to a barista for a minute was their first step.

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Like go get a coffee and say hello and ask them how their day is going. Like that's where it started. That's the level that they could tolerate.

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Interesting. Interesting. Let me ask you this.

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How do you when you're thinking about this how do you understand where you are in that realm of different areas? You know what I mean? Is it just introspection and just looking at yourself or how do you. So if it's all introspection that's a bad day. Like navel gazing only gets you so far.

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How many people do you have that you could call today? Let's say 10. Then you're doing amazing as a young man. If you have 10 people that you can call that will answer.

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Got it. That's amazing. Nice.

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That's a good question to ask. The guys who say no one but my parents. That's a rough starting point.

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Interesting. Let me ask you this too because obviously you're in Colorado where where substances are very readily available. And I'm curious because a lot of young men are struggling with all different kinds of abuse right now.

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I'm curious what your thoughts are on what substances and all these different things play into the to that you know idea. Well it's numbing at its core. Right.

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So either you're abusing uppers to get ahead and that's going to have a cost. Right. You're burning gas for next year, next six months.

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Or you're just getting stoned and checking out. And so it's either you know it ends up being really polar right. It's either dissociating like I need this to rest.

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But it's not real rest if you're stoned. Like your body's still not not recovering in a way. Right.

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Or you're using it to ramp up and that's going to stop working at some point. At some point that's going to like backfire and now you need it to just function. And I think the problem with young guys in particular is we tend to like to be all in on something.

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Right. As guys. And so we go too far with whatever it is.

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Up or down we go too far. So do you think that that there's a place for these you know specifically like let's say marijuana or weed because it's getting legal everywhere. It's getting more readily available.

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But I still hear back and forth on whether it's good for young men to actually be using. And if that's good for the mental space that you're going to be in. You know what I'm saying.

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I'm curious your thoughts. Yeah. So 90% of people can use whatever substance without a problem.

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And then of the 10% that's left most of those will be problematic use. They won't be detrimental if that makes sense. Like they'll use too much.

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They won't be as functional. And then like 3% of people will have a very like hard time. Right.

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With whatever it is. And these are just my experience numbers. These aren't like study based.

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Right. And it's very dependent on the substance. But you've got to watch your use and what it's doing.

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So the big problem out here is people think that marijuana can't hurt you. Yeah. Because it doesn't hurt you like hardcore alcohol uses.

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Like it's not going to cause liver failure. Right. Right.

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But if you're using something every day, you are not using it as an enhancement anymore. You are using it as a coping strategy. And that can be okay to a point.

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Like if you need to be stoned through your whole day to get through it, you probably could be doing other things to get through your day. And you're making it a little brittle. Because all the substance does, like all weed does is it numbs you a little bit.

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Yeah. Right. It doesn't enhance much.

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It numbs. And a little bit of numbing goes a long way. Right.

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It's kind of like having a beer to go socialize where it takes that social edge off a little bit. Right. That's fine.

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But then all of a sudden if you're like wobbling around the bar, right, weed's the same way. If you're just kind of on the couch, right, that's not good either. That makes sense.

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That makes sense. I think that's such an interesting topic. Because growing up in like the era of substances being more readily available, it's so regular now to see 15-year-old kids like, you know, hitting a vape or smoking weed or whatever it is.

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And like I've heard so many high-achieving people in the space talk about how weed is like one of the most detrimental drugs out there because it kind of just, like you said, just numbs you. And I think it's just super interesting because, I mean, we've all had our experience with it. And it's just a super interesting topic because it's so different in so many different places depending on where you go.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think, again, that it really depends on who you are and what you're using it for, right? There are people that I work with that they're so amped up and so fast moving that on a Saturday night they just need to like relax in front of the TV so they'll like eat a little bit of an edible. Right.

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Okay. That's great. You know, enjoy your life.

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There's a range of possibility with every substance. And you never know. Like the struggle is you never know how you're going to respond to a substance.

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The other thing for young guys that doesn't get talked enough about is one of the things we know is rough about weed is that it opens up the potential for schizophrenia. Right. And don't get me wrong, man.

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It's a very small percentage of a very small percentage. But schizophrenia is one of the worst things that happens to families. Because it's like a switch.

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So somewhere during adolescence or their early 20s somebody's brain clicks over and now they're schizophrenic and families feel like they lose the person. And so it's one of those reasons why waiting for weed makes a lot of sense. Like wait until you're 25.

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Wait until you're in your like mid-20s because then you're past the danger zone. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And again, man, it's a small percentage but it's a very scary percentage. Right, right. It's very real the small percentage that it happens to.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. And so the enhancement of that percentage is worth avoiding. No, I think that's wise because I agree that the kids nowadays are getting crazy with it, man.

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They're getting crazy. And I grew up in a friend group that was not very coherent on substance abuse and we definitely took stuff too far and all that stuff. So I'm here to like kind of, you know, relay the message that, you know, substance abuse is not cool.

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You know what I mean? So I think there's a range of it, right? Like go make some mistakes. But when you find yourself making the same mistake over and over and over again, maybe it's time to walk it back. Yeah.

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100%. 100%. And I think it just goes kind of hand in hand with the whole like your identity is totally wrapped around one thing and you're kind of isolating yourself and all this stuff and you need something to kind of help you cope with everything.

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And it all kind of intertwines together at some point. You know what I mean? Especially for like younger men. Yeah.

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I think it's one of those things where if you look around and the only time you spend time with your friends is when you all are getting messed up on something. That's a clue. And then you really, if it gets there, you don't know who of these folks are your friends and who of them are just use buddies, right? Whether it's drinking buddies or just guys you get stoned with.

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And that gets tricky. So if it gets to the point where you need to get sober from it, like you've gone too far and you need a minute. Like I had that with alcohol.

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Right. I was stationed in Korea and I was stationed in England. And after three years of being in those cultures, I was, I was drunk, man.

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Like, yeah. So how was that experience for you? Well, so when I, I didn't realize it. So it was around a bunch of military guys.

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I was in a drinking culture. I didn't realize that I had gone pretty bad with it. And then I get back here to Colorado and I go out with my college friends.

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And when we were in college, we binge drank like most people. And I was worried about it. I was like, Oh man, these guys used to put, put me under the table.

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I got to be careful when I go out tonight. Except they were on their thirties. Like half of them had kids and like nobody was out partying anymore.

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So we go out and by nine o'clock I'm pouring them all into cabs, really drunk. I was in trouble with the wives and I felt fine. Interesting.

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And that was terrifying. Like that was kind of the wake up moment of like, Oh my God, like what happened? And so I didn't drink for six months to reset. Really? And I wasn't sure at that point whether I was going to be able to drink again or not.

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Some people can, some people can't. But it sneaks up on you and sneaks up on everybody. And whatever you're around feels normal.

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Right. Like it felt normal for me to have like 10 drinks in an evening. Like that just felt like a night out, which is insane.

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Right. So when you kind of went through that six month phase, like how, how are you like mentally? How did you get yourself to do that? Because for me, I know there's points in my life where I'm like, yeah, I'm going to kick this. And it's like, yeah.

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But then the addiction comes back in and it's like, all you want is this, right? And it's just super hard. So for me, my family are addicts. And so it was like fear.

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Like if I can't do this, this is really bad. Right. I had a, I had a pretty big incentive.

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Right. For most folks, it's where people fall off it is they say, I'm going to stop doing something without replacing the coping. So for me, I was, I was still in the Air Force.

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So I went to the gym more. I worked out more. I got my sleep right.

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I socialized more. Like I came back to Colorado to my friend group that I had missed. And so all that energy of like getting out with my nerds and like the other people out here that I like that aren't really drinkers was really useful.

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Right. Being around other people that were living a happy life without it. The biggest struggle I see is like I've got two patients right now that came in and they're working on drinking less.

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They're like, yeah, my drinking is out of hand. And they're right. But we haven't stopped them drinking yet.

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And that's probably going to be another month or two because until we get them coping strategies that aren't the alcohol, we're just setting them up for suffering. Now, they can do that because they're with a professional. Right.

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It's hard to do on your own. Like if you're on your own saying, well, I'm going to stop in two months after I figure some things out. Most people aren't going to figure the things out.

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They're just going to keep doing what they're doing. So if it's to that point, don't be afraid to get help. Right.

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That's when you would suggest kind of going out and trying to find help. Yeah. Yeah.

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Like at that point, like the things you're doing for yourself aren't working. So go find somebody that can help you find some new things. And what's interesting is I've been doing this for like a decade now.

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And it's almost never the thing that helps the coping is almost never the thing I try first. And I've been doing this a minute. Like I got a lot of tools in my pocket.

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Right. But you never know what's going to work for somebody. What are some like just bullet points that somebody could maybe try to like use to impact them? Like let's say like you said, you go to the gym, you try to get your sleep right.

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Like those are probably very high ranking bullet points. And those like what are some other ones you think diet and socializing like the not having a friend is worse for you than smoking? I have heard that recently. I've been hearing that a lot.

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Yeah. The four basic needs we have right sleep, movement, diet and people and the people that you're around matter. Right.

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And there's the thing of like you are the average of the people you hang out with. Yeah. Like I think a lot of people use that as like a status check.

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There's a little bit of truth to that. But more than that, it's people that give a shit about you more than what you produce. Like people that care about Barrett more than they care about what Barrett makes or whatever he's doing in the world.

(27:05 - 27:15)

Right. You need those people that value your presence, enjoy you for you and are because of that tolerant of your mistakes. Right.

(27:15 - 27:20)

Not forgiving, not forever, but like tolerant. That makes sense. That makes sense.

(27:20 - 27:41)

I want to hop into a different style of addiction now just because we're on the topic and I think it's interesting. Social media addiction. What is your thoughts for young people in kind of navigating this culture that where big tech companies are just trying to gain your attention in everything they do? Get it off your phone.

(27:43 - 27:54)

Yeah. Just get it off your phone. Like sitting in front of a computer or laptop or whatever, like you choosing when you engage it does so much to put a bit of a barrier between you and that.

(27:54 - 28:08)

But the big thing is, is it's designed and they've had a long time to master how to get your attention and keep it. And so it's not, it's not a will thing. Like people think like, oh, you're just a weak willed person.

(28:08 - 28:20)

No, it's literally a computer versus your meat brain. Like it's not a fair fight. And so, you know, look at your phone and see how many hours a day.

(28:20 - 28:36)

And if it's more than like 30 minutes or an hour, get it off your phone. It's absolutely a detriment to your life. When they looked at connection, right? The only substantial thing, we actually work fewer hours now on average than we did in the 70s as guys.

(28:37 - 28:41)

Because of all that. It's screen time. We spend more time in front of screens than people.

(28:43 - 29:01)

And what ends up happening is you're, you know, you're on TikTok, you're on whatever and you're looking around and what you don't realize is you're slow. You're doing a slow dopamine burn, right? And then a buddy calls and is like, hey man, you want to go out? And you're like, no, I'm tired. And then at the end of the week, you're like, oh man, I just hung out at home all day.

(29:02 - 29:12)

It's because that dopamine burn is taking up that social energy. That's so interesting. Because like you said, you're having a great time when you're scrolling in the moment.

(29:12 - 29:20)

And then it's like four or five hours later, you kind of feel like shit. You know what I mean? You're like, damn, all I did was scroll all day. All I did was scroll for four or five hours.

(29:20 - 29:29)

It's not a great time. I don't know what you're watching, but it's a great time. Hook me up with who you're watching because that's not my experience with it at all.

(29:30 - 29:40)

I see what you mean. It's just like, I don't know what else to do with my time right now. Like at some point or another, like this one was rough on me.

(29:41 - 29:53)

Like the exercise that I hold is like get one of those things that you click to count. Yeah. And then put your phone in a different room for an evening and then click it every time you think about reaching for your phone.

(29:53 - 29:57)

Interesting. You've tried this? Yeah. It's a lot.

(29:57 - 30:03)

How many times did you click? A lot. A lot. And so I got it off my phone, man.

(30:03 - 30:13)

Like I got Facebook off of it. I got my email notifications off of it. And I'm just an old man on Facebook, right? Like this isn't even like TikTok or Insta or anything like that.

(30:14 - 30:23)

It's surprising at how like intolerant we are of boredom. And your brain needs boredom. Like there's a reason why your best ideas happen in the shower.

(30:25 - 30:31)

What's the line about like raw dogging the world? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so true. It's so true.

(30:31 - 30:42)

And I think that's so interesting. We just lost touch with that so much. You know what I mean? Like everybody, especially in the younger generation, is just so locked in on like social media apps.

(30:42 - 30:53)

And we act like we want to create on the social media apps. But really 80% of the time is spent just consuming content on the social media apps. Nobody is really creating content like that.

(30:53 - 31:04)

Obviously, there's a small subset of people that are. But the overwhelming majority from my experience is literally just consuming. You know what I mean? Well, it makes sense, right? You emulate what you perceive as successful.

(31:06 - 31:38)

And so if the only place that you're perceiving people is on social media, why wouldn't you think being an influencer of some kind is the path forward to success? Whereas if you're out in the world, like you see success in your area for whatever that looks like wherever you're at. Right. And so I forget the study, but they looked around at how many upward and downward comparisons we make, right? And so if you're not on social media and you're just walking around your neighborhood, like twice a day you see somebody that has more than you and like feel a way about that.

(31:38 - 31:47)

On social media, it's once every 30 seconds. Like that much downward comparison is bad for us. It makes you feel like you're worse than you are.

(31:48 - 31:54)

Like who the fuck needs a private plane? Yeah. Like it's insane. Great question.

(31:54 - 31:59)

Like first class is amazing. Yeah. That's true.

(31:59 - 32:14)

That's true. Do you think we'll see more and more like, do you think social media could be more abused than some substances like alcohol? Because obviously we know that alcohol consumption for younger people has gone down drastically over the years. Yeah.

(32:15 - 32:26)

So I think it's more insidious than alcohol. Like what I've noticed that we didn't have to deal with, right? Like I went through high school without cameras. Crazy.

(32:26 - 32:37)

So all the crazy, stupid stuff we did, there's no record of. Yeah. And I remember cameras started to be a thing in college and we would throw these big parties, right? A hundred people, a lot of alcohol.

(32:37 - 32:49)

And like we'd get angry at somebody running around with any kind of like, what are you doing? We all want a future. Right. Like no one needs to see like sloppy.

(32:49 - 32:56)

Yeah. Like this is fine. And then I watched as my cousins, they were 10 years younger than me, came up with it in high school and watched.

(32:56 - 33:11)

They were the first kind of guinea pig group and just had no idea how much that was going to impact them later. And so you all are so afraid of being seen doing the wrong thing and having it captured. That's true.

(33:11 - 33:18)

But so then you vicariously live life by watching other people do it. And that's the wild thing. Yeah.

(33:19 - 33:32)

And so the thing with like just passively sitting there is there's no danger to you. Like if I'm just on my couch watching my phone versus like drinking where I can go make some mistakes. Right.

(33:32 - 33:35)

It's more insidious. I see. I see.

(33:35 - 33:50)

Where do you think the human brain and like the developing young brain can't even comprehend some of this stuff? You know what I'm saying? Like it doesn't even understand. Predicting the future is always like a losing game. Yeah.

(33:50 - 34:01)

I can say that what it does right now is it robs people of life. So if you're spending three hours in front of a screen every day, imagine what that three hours would do for you. Right.

(34:01 - 34:06)

Like who you could be connecting with, what you could be doing in the world. The thoughts that you could be having. Right.

(34:06 - 34:13)

The things you could be creating. All that time is being taken from you. Sometimes it's interesting to me.

(34:13 - 34:18)

Like I remember when I started reading in my 20s. Like I'd never read a book through high school. I didn't do it until college.

(34:19 - 34:26)

But I'd lose like evenings in a book. And that was different because it was kind of it was more engaging. It was more active.

(34:26 - 34:33)

Like there was a straight line path to something. Right. And there's good cinema and things like that where like it's enhancing.

(34:34 - 34:41)

But like even listening to this podcast, there's only so much. Right. Like a lot of guys that listen to these don't do anything with the information.

(34:42 - 34:58)

And that's been a big push of ours since we started the podcast. And hopefully people are hearing that. But if you're hearing the things we're talking about and you're not taking them into your life, why are you listening? Like what's the point of being here if this information isn't being used in your life in some way? Makes sense.

(34:59 - 35:21)

How do you think people can start using the information that they learn vicariously through, let's say, podcasts or other self-help avenues? How do you think they can start using it? So I think it's a matter of what I think YouTube is fantastic for. Like I've got a problem I want to solve and I've taken in a bunch of different ways to come at this problem. Right.

(35:21 - 35:37)

So if you've taken like, you know, for me, when I was trying to get back into the gym and failing on my own, I'd listen to like two hours every few days on like different ways to kind of get yourself back into working out. And I was trying them. Right.

(35:37 - 35:46)

If you're listening and then you're trying. That's one thing. And eventually I just gave up and hired a trainer because I'm like completely unselfmotivated for the gym for some reason.

(35:46 - 36:01)

As a fitness leader in the Air Force and can't get my like lazy ass to the gym on my own unless there's a young man with muscles ready to make fun of me waiting. Right. And so the other thing is there's like if you've listened to a bunch of things on how to change this.

(36:02 - 36:19)

And it hasn't gotten traction eventually just get like get help. The big thing is, is if you if you're trying to do something, even if it's just a friend that you're doing it with, like whatever it is, but like the gym's an easy example. Having a gym buddy quadruples your ability to stick with it.

(36:20 - 36:33)

Like just having somebody who's like, what are you doing for your workout today? Did you get up and do it? That makes sense. So it doesn't even have to be like you're spending money on, let's say, like, you know, like a therapist or a trainer or whatever. No, it just needs to be social.

(36:33 - 36:41)

It just needs to be social capital. No, that's super interesting. And that's something, again, that I think we're kind of losing sight of.

(36:41 - 36:54)

And how much do you think we kind of talked about it a little how. But I think this is such an interesting point is that, you know, the people coming up nowadays don't even understand like that piece. You know what I'm saying? They don't even know that that's an option.

(36:54 - 37:18)

Like how much of it do you think is just people not learning kind of what our ancestors and past people have learned coming up because we're just in a completely different society and like social fabric right now? Well, one of the best book, like the book I recommend everybody read is Tribe on Homecoming and Belonging by Sebastian Younger. And he talks about that in the book. And this book has been out now for like 20 years.

(37:19 - 37:25)

And it just gets worse. Like we've built a world to get rid of friction. Right.

(37:25 - 37:30)

Like everything we bring in tech wise is to get rid of friction. And there's some beauty in that. Right.

(37:30 - 37:42)

Like I'm not giving up my toilet paper, plumbing or Internet. Like I love all of this. But we forget that like the pain you go through for something is part of how you feel achievement.

(37:43 - 37:52)

Like how many like bright people go through school and are like it's so easy. I don't feel like this is anything for me. And then they just like fall into the basement and don't do anything with their intellect.

(37:52 - 37:55)

Yeah. Right. Or I think a lot about my dad.

(37:56 - 38:07)

My dad was incredibly athletic and my grandfather was a golfer. And he took my dad on a course and he shot birdie on his first hole. Like never having played golf before.

(38:07 - 38:11)

And then was like, I'm bored with this. I never played again. And my grandfather was just heartbroken.

(38:14 - 38:18)

Understandable. Like you need some friction to feel like you're pushing on something. A hundred percent.

(38:19 - 38:28)

And then the problem is that when we look at social media and we look at video and we see people doing things, we only see them at their best. People only put up their best. They don't put up their mistakes very often.

(38:28 - 38:35)

Yeah. That's part of why we keep the fact check and why we try to keep most of our mistakes in the episode. To like let people see that this is not perfect.

(38:36 - 38:41)

I am not like some omniscient deity of a clinician that knows everything. Right. Like we get shit wrong.

(38:42 - 38:55)

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. That traction or that, that, you know, piece where you're not fully figuring out your feelings and friction between something is, is definitely an interesting topic that not a lot of people talk about nowadays.

(38:55 - 39:10)

And it's super important to the, you know, human biology and bring upbringing of humans. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so we're used to running around in these like kind of egalitarian groups where you got status from being good at a thing that was useful to the people around you.

(39:10 - 39:31)

And now there's not a lot of ways to be useful to people around you. Like the thing that kills me is like if a friend's sick, I can offer to bring them some food, but they just order Grubhub. And like I'm glad that they can get whatever they need, but it feels like we're missing this tending that like this connection point that we used to have.

(39:32 - 39:36)

Right. So it's just harder. It's harder to feel like you're impactful to the people around you.

(39:36 - 39:52)

So it's harder to stay engaged. Interesting. So what are some ways that you think people can try to become more impactful? Is it just reaching out to friends and family and all of this stuff and trying to, you know, just make it happen? I think for a lot of guys, it's going to be service organizations and churches, to be honest.

(39:53 - 40:01)

I see. Like if you've got people in your life that you can be around and set something up with, that's great. But the service organizations are really where guys used to have it.

(40:01 - 40:04)

Right. You used to go to the Elk Lodge. You used to go to the Masons, whatever it was.

(40:04 - 40:10)

Yeah. And it'd be a place where guys would get around each other and bust each other's balls. But then they'd also talk about the potholes in the neighborhood.

(40:10 - 40:20)

They'd talk about like what that school needed. They'd talk about what to do for the people around them to be a little bit better. Or if like if you're an athlete, go coach.

(40:20 - 40:23)

Go coach little league. Go coach middle school. Go coach high school.

(40:23 - 40:28)

Right. Like it doesn't matter. Like get out and let your skill set be useful to somebody coming up behind you.

(40:28 - 40:30)

It feels really good. Right. Right.

(40:30 - 41:07)

What is your thoughts around as young people trying to figure it out? Like you kind of said, get out there, do something for maybe not the money necessarily, but just doing it so you can get the experience and do all that stuff. What is your thoughts around young people trying stuff out and not thinking about the money and not doing it for the money and just for the experience? I think it depends on who's trying to talk you into doing it for the experience. Valid. 

Valid. Unpaid internships are bullshit. Like if somebody is not willing to put some paper behind what they're asking you to do, be very skeptical of what you're getting out of that experience.

(41:08 - 41:16)

If it's community based, if it's I'm showing up to like, you know, going to the church to work in the food bank or something like that. Like that's different. Right.

(41:17 - 41:32)

If I'm showing up at a club because we're all interested in doing the same kind of media, it's different. But if somebody has like a decent amount of money, if they've got, like if they're trying to sell their success to you, they can afford to pay you. Interesting.

(41:33 - 41:45)

That's true. That's true. I think we get lost there too because like one thing I think happens is you just take one reality of one situation and then just cast it across every other reality of the situations you're trying to figure out.

(41:46 - 41:51)

And I don't know. I think it's an interesting place to be. What are your thoughts around that? I don't know, man.

(41:51 - 42:09)

People are always going to try to get something from somebody. And if it's people that care about you, they're less likely to be just using you. If it's people that don't know you, that you've got some kind of parasocial relationship with or that they're trying to sell something, always be skeptical of people trying to sell you something.

(42:11 - 42:21)

Like that's a, that's been a big part of what I worry about doing this is I'm not selling anything yet, but at some point I'd like to be right. Like I'd like it if this started paying for itself, but I worry about what happens then. Interesting.

(42:22 - 42:37)

Well, any closing remarks before we get off the pod? Well, I did. This has been fun for me. Like this is like one of our conversations that we have in between, like spending half our time when we're supposed to be working on the podcast, like BSing.

(42:38 - 42:51)

So I guess I, I hope the listeners got something out of it. If there's a topic that feels good, we're trying a new thing. Like for me to do a solo episode, it's an awful lot of work for like, I think a decent amount of influence.

(42:51 - 43:08)

But if you've got a topic that you want and this was worthwhile to you, I like these conversations with Barrett and I hope that there, you found something useful in it. If there's a topic that you want us to talk about, if it's a topic you want me to talk about, hand it off to Barrett and he'll come up with some questions. This was just kind of a shotgun at all the things we could talk about.

(43:10 - 43:15)

That's how, that's how my mind thinks though. We just keep going and we just keep going and we just keep going. It was, I agree though.

(43:15 - 43:18)

It was a fun conversation. A hundred percent. Well, thanks for doing it, man.

(43:18 - 43:21)

Thanks for being willing. Of course. Of course.

(43:21 - 43:47)

I thought, yeah, it's not often you get to come on here and talk to, you know, a clinician or a therapist or whatever, really anybody. And you get to talk about, you know, existential problems that you, the youth they're going through and nowadays, you know what I mean? Well, it's just nice having a conversation instead of an interview. Like I, my favorite thing about this has been getting really smart people to get information from.

(43:48 - 43:58)

And it's nice just having conversation where that's not like it's more what I bring in. It's nice to have space for that, that I'm not like trying to script out and make perfect for everybody. A hundred percent.

(43:58 - 43:59)

Agree. A hundred percent. Agree.

(44:00 - 44:10)

That's our first interview led by my producer Barrett. As always, we fact check to make sure we're giving you the clearest information possible this week to misses and clarification all on cannabis. First miss.

(44:10 - 44:23)

I said about 90% of people can use a substance without a problem. Those numbers were from my office, not research in 2023, about three and 10 people who used cannabis in the past year met criteria for a use disorder. Most of those cases were mild, but mild is still diagnosis.

(44:24 - 44:33)

Second miss I said, waiting until 25 puts you past the danger zone for schizophrenia. Waiting is effective, but no birthday ends the risk. It tracks heavy use and it runs highest among young men.

(44:33 - 44:39)

The clarification. I described schizophrenia as a switch that flips to a family. That's how it can feel.

(44:39 - 44:53)

However, it usually isn't how it develops changes in thinking mood and how someone deals with people tend to show up first treatment works. It helps people stay in school or at work and keep their relationships. None of this predicts what happens to any individual person.

(44:54 - 45:05)

If someone in your life changes, how they're showing up, pulling away or thinking differently, encourage them to get help. If that's someone as you same rule with psychosis, earlier treatment leads to better outcomes. This episode, you all got to meet Barrett.

(45:05 - 45:14)

He's been producing the podcast for a bit, and we want to try this format to replace some of our solo content. How did we do compared to the solo episodes for you? Tell us how it worked. This has been Tim.

(45:14 - 45:17)

Winky with American masculinity. 69th episode. Thanks for listening.