Episode Summary

(0:00 - 0:20) I'm battling for mastery of myself, but my approach to my wife is not one of combat and war and contending. If all you did was paint masculinity as constant warfare, even if a guy doesn't take that to a militaristic extreme publicly, he's going to be exhausted with it. There's a difference between being against something and going to war with something.

(0:20 - 0:32) Minister and author Stephen Mansfield joins us to help us break down where the warrior script stops working at home. Well, thanks for being here, man. I think we're going to have a good conversation.

(0:33 - 0:46) I'm looking forward to it very much. So I know we got a little bit, a little bit of time, so I'm going to jump right in. The big thing with your work that seems to resonate with a lot of guys is that that warrior script within masculinity.

(0:47 - 1:07) Where does that script start to not work anymore when guys get too invested in that idea? Like, where does it go off the rails for them? Yeah, it sure can. And thanks for bringing that up. I believe in the idea of a man battling for mastery over himself or having to battle against his weaknesses or having to fight for his family.

(1:07 - 1:26) Meaning, I don't mean, you know, on the streets with a sword, but, you know, for whatever that whatever that means to financial well-being, getting out of financial difficulties or fight maybe generational issues. You know, I got 100 years of alcoholism in my family. I'm fighting for that my generation to be free, that kind of thing.

(1:26 - 1:38) Obviously, as you well know, and I come from a military background, so I'm very well aware of this. And I would say half my friends are military for just because of location of where I've lived. Obviously, somebody can take that too far.

(1:38 - 1:44) They can think they need to camo up. They can think they need to be armed. They can they can get real hardcore political.

(1:44 - 1:51) They can become. But that's not primarily what I'm talking about. And I certainly want a man to be able to defend himself on the street if he gets in trouble.

(1:51 - 2:28) But that's not the primary thrust of where I am. I'm talking about whatever words we want to use, spiritual, mystical, emotional, psychological, combative, fighting for mastery over himself, which is, you know, everybody from the from the ancient Greek fathers to the New Testament writers to, you know, psychologists today use that language. So you're absolutely right. It can be taken the wrong way. And so those who teach it, try to encourage it should be careful in their language and maybe outline the extremes so people avoid them.

(2:29 - 2:46) Yes. And so World War Two, those guys were just in the field for years. And that kind of thing continued until we finally realized how many operational guys we were losing due to mistakes, due to errors because of staying in combat too long.

(2:47 - 3:11) And so now doctrine is that if a guy goes to a war zone, he only goes for six months and then he doesn't come back for 18. And so when I think of that warrior script, it's good to have something you know you're against, right? Yeah. Like that's ethics, it's values. These are the things I'm against. But there's a difference between being against something and at war with something.

(3:12 - 3:29) And my approach and the approach of those that I co-teach with is not so much that this is the heart of manhood or the heart of masculinity. It's just part of it that in your life you have to contend for things. I contend to keep my weight under a certain level.

(3:29 - 3:54) I contend to only eat four Oreos and not 10. I mean I'm having fun but that the contention side of it, the militaristic side of it, the combat side of it, whatever terms we want to use is meant to be woven into the rest of it. I'm battling for mastery of myself but my approach to my wife is not one of combat and war and contending or with my kids and my grandkids.

(3:54 - 4:09) I'm old enough to have grandkids or what have you. So yeah, I think there definitely are excesses. And by the way, if all you did was paint masculinity as constant warfare, even if a guy doesn't take that to a militaristic extreme publicly, he's going to be exhausted with it.

(4:09 - 4:20) That's not sustainable as you well know as a therapist. So I would never urge that as just the heart of the matter. When you learn that you need to devote yourself to certain people, there's a contention side of it.

(4:20 - 4:53) In the same way that if you and I lived in the same place and became close friends, I would contend for the good of our relationship, whatever that meant, without violence and without it being 24-7 the topic of conversation between us. Yeah, I think what I see when guys kind of take it too far is that burnout. And particularly young guys, right? Like I think there's something about that hero's journey when we're young that we just like having something to rally against feels very good for a young man.

(4:53 - 4:58) It certainly did for me. And I think they can get stuck there. They can.

(4:58 - 5:15) And I think actually a healthy form of masculinity is one that has a number of models to it, so to speak. The number of images. And the warrior is but one in, what, 25? There's the lover, and there's the nurturer, and there's the farmer, and there's the mountain climber.

(5:15 - 5:25) You and I could sit here all day and weave, I'm sure, wonderful lessons for people out of different metaphors. The military is one of them. And it's there.

(5:26 - 5:34) And for Christian men who are striving, it's in Scripture to some degree. But it's not exclusive to men, by the way, in Scripture. It's just one of the models that's offered.

(5:34 - 5:55) So, yeah, I would definitely be careful about the extremes. Yeah, the extremes in a relationship that I hear, and please tell me if this is what you see when you're working with guys to help them find the balance, is they want to be somebody who champions things and is up for a conflict should it be required. Like, I'm your friend.

(5:55 - 6:01) I love you. I see you making mistakes. I see you living in a way that you don't want to be living.

(6:02 - 6:06) Hey, you're my spouse. I see us drifting. I don't want that marriage.

(6:07 - 6:11) Right. Hey, I see my kids. They're doing something the wrong way.

(6:11 - 6:25) But there's this mindset that some guys get into where they feel like as the guy, the discipline, the feedback that they're supposed to be giving is that critical feedback all the time. And that's, to me, that's what I think of when I think of that warrior. Because you're right.

(6:25 - 6:32) We're not talking about running around with a gun and a sword. We're talking about being willing to stand and fight for something. Yeah, absolutely.

(6:32 - 6:44) And there's another part of this I want to bring up, and that is that when I urge men to contend, I urge men not to contend alone. I believe in a band of brothers. It's actually a title of a book I've written.

(6:45 - 7:01) I believe that, you know, when you have a close friend, again, the image of you and me living in the same town being close friends. You know, if one of us has battles with depression or one of us has battles with our weight or one of us has battles with a certain kind of addiction, part of that friendship is we contend for each other. We fight as teams.

(7:01 - 7:17) So there's also that, that if you've got a guy who thinks that manhood is, you know, hiding in a cave somewhere prepared for the big one, you know, he's got the wrong image here. We're battling for each other to be healthy. And I'll tell you another thing I often tell men.

(7:17 - 7:40) I think you said earlier to me, and it's certainly the truth in my case, that I'm with a lot of military men. And when things get too militaristic and kind of a, you know, suburban kind of cool way, well, and they'll, they'll also say, hey, hold up a minute. I'm in the Green Berets and you're not, you know, I'm a special forces and you're not.

(7:40 - 7:43) So stop. Stop trying to turn this manhood thing. They actually get bored with it.

(7:44 - 7:54) And I've watched them turn to a guy who's gotten to, you know, jingoistic, awesome, awesome. I'll kick its butt kind of attitude. And they'll go, hold up here.

(7:54 - 8:01) You're trying to be something you're not. We're not in the barracks at Fort Ord here. We are, you know, we're, we're men trying to be men.

(8:01 - 8:05) So don't take that too far. You've just been weird. And we don't act like that in the barracks.

(8:05 - 8:08) Like, that's not. Exactly. No, exactly.

(8:08 - 8:20) When you hear that from a colonel, you hear that from a seal, you feel stupid and you realize how far you've gone with it. So, yeah, I think that's, I think that there are no question. There are weird extremes.

(8:20 - 8:49) And normally they point out excesses in the person's personality that need to be confronted as, as you know, better than I do as a therapist. Well, I think I, what I like about that is the like bit of isolation and then having people around you that will help you lean into what you're building. Like the, the older guys that I see that get too aligned in that conflict role is they feel like they're the line between all the things that can hurt their family and make them unhappy.

(8:50 - 9:05) And their family's happiness, which means they never get to join in their family's happiness. Right, right. And I believe that what we're doing is we're defending something beautiful and holy and, and special and loving.

(9:06 - 9:20) And defense only happens when it has to happen. I mean, you're very, very, very, you know, what is it today in America? I just happened to have this stack because I'm working on a book on West Point. Only, only 3% of Americans actually, actually, you know, serve in uniform.

(9:21 - 9:41) So if you turn the whole society into a military camp, you've lost the reason we, we, we have our freedoms and have our constitution and have the nation to begin with. All of this was meant to protect something. Well, what's it protecting? And if you're, if you're, you know, some, a small percentage are meant to be perpetually at war during some periods of time.

(9:41 - 9:58) But if you think of yourself that way all the time, you'll never have the thing we were meant to be defending in the first place and you'll be living a vapid life. So it's a, it's a valuable perspective. The big thing that I'm kind of hearing is, and I think this happens a lot when I talk with people about faith, right? My lane is, is a clinician.

(9:58 - 10:04) I help people name their values. I help people live within their values and I give them tools to do so. I help them figure out their story.

(10:05 - 10:14) But where I see faith start to get disruptive to people is when it gets so thin in its definition, it gets brittle. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

(10:14 - 10:35) And that's something I see often. It's something I try to confront and try to help them understand. But, you know, the Christian faith, in my case, I'm a Christian, as I understand it, is something beefy and it can sustain a blow.

(10:35 - 10:41) And it can, you know, I have dear friends who disagree with me. I think you may know a little bit about me. I do a lot in the Muslim world.

(10:41 - 10:56) A huge portion of my friends are Muslims. And late in the evening when we're finished with whatever we're doing, you know, building water wells or whatever, they'll go, Stephen, what in the world? You know, and so we start having these really wonderful conversations. Well, I don't blow up or we don't start killing each other.

(10:56 - 11:17) We just have great conversations because I think it's, again, my faith is something that's healthy and can sustain blows and can sustain criticism. And I'm better for the fact that I live in a world of intellectual debate and discussion and, you know, being the only Christian in the room at an academic conference or whatever. I love all that stuff.

(11:17 - 11:31) And it makes me a better man and a better Christian. So I couldn't agree more. If a faith gets brittle, particularly if it's Christian, we're talking about Christianity, then something's already wrong further up the stream there.

(11:31 - 11:51) And that's the last thing it ought to be. I think there's a there's a moment in time with an idea in our life where it's the unchallenged idea, the challenged idea and then the faith idea. Right.

(11:51 - 12:15) And children have the unchallenged. Right. Like, you know, this is what I believe. This is what I've been told. That's the way the world is. Right. And then something makes you question. And either you get really, really angry and defensive and put on blinders and try to keep being the child or you answer the questions and come out on the other side, either with a new answer or faith that this imperfect answer is the one that you're going to roll with. How do you guide guys through that process? Because so many young men are coming into the church now.

(12:15 - 12:22) Right. Like we we've seen a huge spike in young men looking for the challenge. They don't like going to churches where they just let anybody in.

(12:22 - 12:54) They they want to go to places where there is some challenge, where there is something that they need to give of themselves, where there is a mission that they can join. How do you help those guys walk that process from that simple? I have an answer to the challenged answer to the faith answer. Well, my approach to this is if if we're talking about a genuine relationship with a living God, and I know that's a grandiose statement, but if we're talking about a real relationship with God, the last thing it's going to be is brittle.

(12:55 - 13:13) The last thing is going to be. I mean, let's just assume for a moment there's a real God and that my faith, your faith, whatever it might be, is a connection to that real God. Well, the last thing it would be is fearful and retreating and foxhole and, you know, wounded.

(13:13 - 13:18) And, oh, don't you cross me. I'll strike back kind of. That's the last thing it would be.

(13:18 - 13:29) It would be calm and peaceful and bring it. You know, let's talk. Let's go get a hamburger or raise a cocktail or whatever and have this have this conversation.

(13:29 - 13:41) Let's keep it going for years. There would be a calm, relaxed interaction that's not immature and is open to the fact that I don't have it all figured out because we would again be talking about the God of the universe. So, again, assuming there is a God.

(13:42 - 13:55) And so I think it I think it has to be. It's not a model that we should settle into or relax with or allow, so to speak. I mean, that lovingly with those we want to help be healthy.

(13:55 - 14:05) It's it's not it's not a healthy approach to faith or life for that matter. It would be like it would be a stupid, in my opinion. My wife's name is Beverly, and I'm crazy about her.

(14:05 - 14:24) But if if I was so brittle about her that any man who took a second look or any time she hugged a guy at the party or whatever, I lost it. Well, this this first of all, we know two things, right? I don't really love and trust her the way I say I do. And there's something deeply wrong with me.

(14:24 - 14:41) And so that I see that as pretty much being the same thing. Yeah, it's that that belief that despite something that could happen poorly. That whatever it is you're engaging in will come through it on the other side and still be what you need to them.

(14:42 - 14:47) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think it's making it makes life richer.

(14:48 - 15:03) But it also makes faith deeper, in my view, in my opinion, that the people who don't agree with me almost sometimes do me more good than the people who do. Because they're hammering away at something. I've said that I need to rethink that or, you know, I got to figure that out in a different way.

(15:04 - 15:19) Yeah, I feel that very much, too, as a secular guy. Like I did my undergrad down in Salt Lake City and ended up having a lot of colleagues, friends and fellow students that were Mormon and had conversations with them. And these are all Salt Lake City Mormons.

(15:19 - 15:32) So their faith is pretty deep. And a lot of them had more brittle faith when we started talking. But there were a lot of them that took their mission serious, that could answer questions, that could take challenges, and that were calm and kind in the discussions.

(15:34 - 15:45) And that's where I was really jealous of not having faith, right, as a secular guy. When you see someone in that space, it's enviable. Yeah.

(15:45 - 16:02) You know, I have to say our LDS friends do a great job with that. I have actually written a book where I praise them for so much of what they've accomplished and the only religion in America to come under an extermination order and all that kind of thing. But I don't agree with them on their supernatural claims.

(16:02 - 16:12) Well, they just buddied up to me. They invited me into their homes. I've spoken to the LDS president's defense team, you know, encouraging manhood.

(16:12 - 16:23) I had a few evangelical friends who said, you know, become an LDS. Sorry, you could just because I would be in Salt Lake City so much. I mean, that's how warm, as you know, and friendly it can be.

(16:23 - 16:28) And that was healthy for all of us. It was healthy for all of us. And so that's my approach anyway.

(16:29 - 16:40) Yeah, I think it's the right one if you can pull it off. I think it's just getting harder to do. One of the one of the big kind of distances I work with is liberal Christians.

(16:41 - 17:21) And they're trying to be a man and be cognizant of different social justice issues and different parts of different churches are very against those. How do you help those guys find the communities they're looking for where they have that faith that can be questioned? They have that community where they can show up and help somebody build that water well, fill in those potholes, do the food mission without feeling like they're supporting something that's hurting people. Well, in my case, the Bible being important in my life and the groups that I'm with, that stuff is that here's the kind of fun phrase we use.

(17:21 - 17:35) That stuff's already on the page. There's not really anything that my theologically liberal friends can be excited about doing and having an impact in in society. That's not for me already on the page.

(17:35 - 17:41) You want to feed the hungry? Let's go. You want to find water wells in Africa? Let's go. You want to work on racial reconciliation? Let's go.

(17:42 - 17:59) You want to stop hardcore right wingers from beating up on trans people in some place? I may not agree with those trends, but let's go. Let's stop that violence from happening. So it is a flaw in the traditional church that people feel like they have to go outside or be.

(17:59 - 18:26) I mean, I'm being humorous now, be heretical in order to be socially active when that social activism, for the most part, is already on the page in the Bible, already commanded, already what was commended. So I like I like playing the bad guy against the conservatives and saying, don't don't come to me griping about the theological liberals who are down there feeding the homeless. That's exactly what we're commanded to do.

(18:26 - 18:43) Do that for a year. Then come talk to me about the more theological, you know, the house of cards that you don't agree with, with theological liberals or traditional denominations and so on. So I like playing a little bit the bad boy there because I am so much about social activism for Christians.

(18:43 - 19:07) And as I say, to use that favorite phrase of mine, it's already on the page. So if somebody is doing it when you're not doing it, when you claim to be a biblical Christian, shame on you, shame on you and stop it. So I think I think that actually I actually in the work that I do with men, getting them socially active often solves a lot of issues and brings a unity across lines.

(19:07 - 19:16) That's wonderful. So getting off and getting off our couches and getting busy is part of the answer here, at least for men. Yeah, I agree.

(19:16 - 19:44) But the big thing that I tell people to look for when they're shopping for a church as like just a secular guy looking for something that tends to not be brittle is, do they tell you that they are the only way to get better? Because if that's what they're saying, that's probably they're selling you something. Right. When you look around, are there people with diverse means in the room where it's not all some one social strata? Yes.

(19:45 - 19:58) And then do they talk about people in a way to help them or do they talk about people in a way to reject them? Exactly. I would 100% embrace all of those. Couldn't agree more.

(19:58 - 20:16) I'm sure you've done some studies and cults and things of that nature. That's actually is the difference between a church and a cult. If everybody else is the great unwashed and the three of us in this group are the holy ones or the right ones and et cetera, then I'm in a cult.

(20:16 - 20:19) Look around. You just made yourself a cult. It's not a church.

(20:20 - 20:28) So I couldn't agree more. Well, I'm glad you're out here putting the information into the world. And I'm sorry we got a little bit of a limited time.

(20:28 - 20:44) I like having spirituality for my patients because one, all the data points out that you're happier. Like people of faith are happier. And in part it's because they have some trust for the things they can't do anything about.

(20:45 - 20:54) But they can hand it to something. And I wish there were more opportunities for more guys to get that. And I think it's coming around.

(20:54 - 21:18) I just worry at the places bringing in the young men are often the places that are finding exclusionary tactics to be the best way to get them in the door. And that concerns me a little bit. Yeah, I get that because young men are not gravitating to traditional Protestant kind of theologically left leaning or whatever terms we want to use theologically liberal churches.

(21:18 - 21:31) They're going for the more hardcore. They're going to hardcore Orthodox, hardcore Catholic, hardcore evangelical. And so there's obviously a psychological component to this in that they want a rigid system.

(21:32 - 21:43) Now, you know, I believe that all faiths have the rigid system side of what they are. You know, our LDS friends certainly have that. I mean, just let's just talk about going on mission for two years.

(21:43 - 21:52) You know, I mean, there's obviously that rigid system side. But if that's all it is and if that's what you gravitate to, you got to join the Marines. Stop trying to make it a religion.

(21:53 - 22:01) And so I'm glad young men are turning to faith in a legitimate way. But I share with you. I'm watching very carefully.

(22:01 - 22:24) Is it that they have grown up in a culture without discipline, without boundaries, maybe without fathers in the home, et cetera. And now the the masculine voice of these religion movements with a bit of its rigidity, almost like we've said in a militaristic way, is the appeal. If that's the appeal, that's not going to be healthy for any religion and not for these young men.

(22:24 - 22:41) So I think it's not a one size fits all. It's not it's not a universal truth for each one of them. But as a trend, guys like you and I who are both conscientious men, but also scholars of religious movements and cultural movements and what have you, sociological movements.

(22:41 - 23:03) We need to pay attention to what's actually motivating these people. And by the way, are they there and are they there six months later? Or did they gravitate to something harsher, something more angry? Because that is part of the dynamic. Yeah, well, I guess we'll we'll keep talking into the void a little bit and see if we can help some guys find a healthier way.

(23:04 - 23:32) I always like to end with three questions for everybody that comes on. And I've actually been pretty excited to ask you these in particular, because you've watched so many guys go through some of these journeys. What's a truth about masculinity you learned before you were 12 that's remained true through your entire life? My father turned to me maybe when I was seven, eight or nine, and my father was an army officer and very, you know, buff and very impressive in his uniform and all that.

(23:32 - 23:51) He turned to me when we were getting in the car with my mother and he said to me, get your mother's car door for me, a car door. Get your mother's door for me, will you please? And it sounds so simple. But at that moment, two things popped off in my soul at about seven, eight years old, 10 years old.

(23:51 - 24:12) One, my father had a responsibility to care for my mother. And two, he was bringing me into it. And so silly as that sounds for in such simple words, the the idea that a man does have a responsibility towards a woman of protection and love and nurture.

(24:13 - 24:25) And that that I was there to share it with my father, that it was a team effort. I didn't have any brothers and sisters at that moment. And we were we were we were teaming up to take care of and love my mother.

(24:25 - 24:33) That was that that was huge. And that was masculinity to me for many years. I mean, I didn't have anything else that would have other than just my father's example.

(24:33 - 24:50) But I've mentioned that for many years because it was such a small thing, but it produced such a huge thing. And I and I it was my it was really my first invitation to manhood. Share with me, son, in caring for your mother.

(24:50 - 24:56) I'm not asking you to kill the bear, but could you open the car door for her? You know, that kind of thing. And it was big for me. It was big for me.

(24:56 - 25:03) And I to this moment, I still I said, hey, guys in the room, you know, I'm talking to people. Great big rooms full of men. I'll say, please go ahead and laugh.

(25:03 - 25:12) I understand how silly this sounds. But it was the first moment I thought of myself as a man on a mission and in league with my father. It was pretty huge.

(25:12 - 25:27) So that that would be the lesson that a man has an obligation, an opportunity, a privilege of partnering with other men and caring for the women in his life. And that doesn't in any way make the women weak and incapable. My mother was amazingly strong.

(25:27 - 25:48) But it was it was both a polite thing, a manners thing and a chivalry thing. And it meant a lot to me at the time. Yeah, there's always these intense moments where for whatever reason, as a boy, if if a man's around and he invites you into a thing that you perceive as what a man does, it opens a door.

(25:48 - 25:58) And almost all these stories either come from a moment like that with somebody or an entire absence of them. And I love that. I love that.

(25:58 - 26:01) That's the moment with your dad. And I like that. It was just, you know, hey, go be nice to me.

(26:01 - 26:08) And he was and he was wise enough to grow that over time. Okay. In other words, that was intentional on his part.

(26:08 - 26:16) Okay. I think you're big enough now to get the car door. Tell you what, let's do you and I let your mom rest on Saturday morning and we'll go get the groceries or whatever.

(26:16 - 26:25) However, it expanded over the next years as I got bigger and could actually carry a bag of groceries or whatever. So, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

(26:25 - 26:35) The second question is, tell us about a time pursuit of manhood hurt you. Good one. I went through a divorce and I appreciate that.

(26:36 - 26:50) And it was not publicly messy, but it involved it was it was painful on. It was it was a lot going on behind the scenes that I wasn't willing to talk about publicly. And I don't mean about me.

(26:51 - 27:06) I'm talking about my former spouse. Yeah. Well, the the simplistic I'll even use the phrase faith based approach to manhood instantly made me the bad guy in the eyes of a lot of people that I knew at the time.

(27:07 - 27:20) I might have agreed with their first principles, but by the time they wound down to my situation, you know, I'm not obligated to stay with a person doing certain things. I'm not totally responsible for whether there's a divorce or not. I'm not, you know, that kind of thing.

(27:20 - 27:29) I think you can kind of read between the lines. And so it wasn't so much my pursuit of manhood. I think I was being the best man I could be in the situation.

(27:30 - 27:46) But the the philosophy, the theology, the worldview of the certain view of manhood, I just got hammered by people because the assumption was I'm the man. I'm automatically not responsible and wrong. It was deeply painful.

(27:46 - 28:01) Not not not so much because I was in a tug of war with a wife, but because there wasn't the help. There wasn't the well, let's see if we can fix this together or any kind of thing like that. I wasn't asking for people to take sides.

(28:01 - 28:17) I was just wanting them, perhaps, you know, some of my better friends not to assume that I was automatically the evil one. I didn't I didn't think there had to be an evil one in the situation, but it certainly wasn't the truth that I was the evil one because I was male. And that was kind of the way it was approached.

(28:17 - 28:33) That was a that was a painful season, very painful season, not just because of the divorce, but because I lost a lot of people who just assumed Stephen bad. Why Stephen bad? Because there is a divorce. If there is a divorce, automatically the male is.

(28:33 - 28:46) And so you know more about that than I do. I'm sure you've dealt with that before in your in your work. And so the combination of the accusations and the loss of relationships was deeply, deeply painful and took years to recover from.

(28:47 - 28:59) I mean, quite literally having, you know, to put it lightly, that number of friends again. I'm currently rebuilding from a similar situation. I appreciate it.

(28:59 - 29:21) That's the rigidity that we were talking about earlier, right? I think that the there is a version of responsibility for a husband and leadership where if there is a failure in the relationship, if there is an irreconcilable break of the trust. That a lot of cultures come down pretty hard on the guy. Yes.

(29:21 - 29:29) I'm really sorry that happened to you. I appreciate that. And I'm and I'm so willing to take all the responsibility I possibly can.

(29:29 - 29:51) I think part of a lot of what a man does is take responsibility and I'm grateful for it. Happy to take that role. When there are circumstances beyond a person's control or when there are two people with volition, not just one, you know, you have to, I'm not saying lighten up and hold me while I lay in a fetal position on the floor.

(29:51 - 30:04) I'm just saying, give me a break. And then, of course, I think there's a certain amount of honor among the man and a good man that he's not going to betray all the details about what's going on. It's nobody else's business what happened in that marriage.

(30:04 - 30:09) It's not their business, but you're losing friends over it. So anyway, that would be the second one. Great question.

(30:10 - 30:19) Sure. And the last one, we like to go out on a good note. Tell us about a time your manhood has empowered you, like your pursuit of it.

(30:20 - 30:35) Yeah, I appreciate that. I have had a cancer, a battle with cancer that started with prostate cancer about 10 years ago. And it could have been any kind of cancer, but it was just that that just happened to be what it was.

(30:36 - 31:14) And being a man and believing I ought not just cave in in the face of it and believing that I ought to fight back and believing I wanted to be as healthy as I possibly could for my family. And having one grandson and then another and then another and saying, doggone it, I'm going to in 20 years, I'm going to be the guy shooting hoops with the guys coming over from the college or whatever, you know, and fighting back. There was a distinctly manly, I'm fighting for the future of my family and my influence and the young men in my family kind of vibe that was really healthy for me.

(31:14 - 31:32) And that's where the warrior side was valid and helpful. Because initially when I got the diagnosis, it wasn't that it was automatically terminal, but it was going to be a long, hard slog. And I thought, well, I don't know that I'm equal to this.

(31:32 - 31:53) You know, just sometimes if you're being honest, you might bump your chest like Tarzan in front of everybody else. But in private, you're going, this is a bitch. And so I think to in a healthy way, man up at that moment has made a huge amount of difference, not just in the defeat of cancer by going through whatever I had to go through.

(31:54 - 32:13) But in terms of knowing that I was fighting for the future, fighting for my family, fighting for my young guys, that kind of thing. Yeah, I think those big challenges, you need something outside of yourself. There's only like one David Goggins, right? There's only one guy that's like just pumped about doing whatever he's doing.

(32:13 - 32:20) The rest of us means trying to stick around for something. I'm really glad you're still here. Thank you.

(32:20 - 32:40) And I'll tell you part of it too, just a small bite of it is that when, as you may know, I don't know if you've been through these kinds of things or not. But when you are going through certain health challenges, part of what happens is that you weaken physically. Well, there's not much of a distance between weakening physically and then emotionally just not giving a hang.

(32:41 - 32:54) And that was the main battle for me. I have a jock like or your kind of vibe in my soul. You know, I'm up and at it.

(32:54 - 33:10) But when you just feel like crap and you're just like, is this worth it? Well, now just finding the fight for the first time in my life became the challenge. I mean, I'm talking about the fight in the sense of my own soul. And so all over overcoming all of that was really significant.

(33:10 - 33:14) I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful you did. And it's nice to still have you around.

(33:15 - 33:16) Thank you. Very kind. Very kind.

(33:17 - 33:38) So we want to get you to your plane. Tell the guys listening if they were looking for some help finding biblical masculinity, if they were looking for the qualities that they would want and maintain their religious views. How would they find you? Steven Mansfield TV is the way to go.

(33:38 - 33:45) All my books are there. This is also the portal access for podcast and so on. And I recommend other people's materials as well.

(33:45 - 33:51) So Steven Mansfield TV is the way to go. And I'd love to love to hear from all of them. And by the way, thank you for having me on this program.

(33:51 - 34:02) I've really enjoyed it. You're telling your questions are intelligent and I and I love your voice. I may call you one day and say, I just need you to talk to me.

(34:03 - 34:14) I'm here for you. That's been my favorite part about the podcast is talking to the full range and breadth of people trying to do good work in the world. Good. Good. Good. Take care.

(34:14 - 34:18) All right. Thank you very much. That's our conversation with Steven Mansfield.

(34:18 - 34:25) As always, we fact check to make sure we're giving you the clearest information possible this week. One correction and one clarification. The correction is mine.

(34:25 - 34:35) I said a guy who deploys only goes for six months and doesn't come back for 18. That's not a rule. The Department of Defense's goal is three times as much time at home as deployed with a floor of two.

(34:36 - 34:42) Plenty of tours run longer than six months. The Army especially. And units have spent long stretches below that floor.

(34:42 - 34:50) What holds is the principle. Recovery time got built into the policy because people stop functioning without it. Nobody but you will build recovery into your life at home.

(34:51 - 34:57) The clarification is also mine. I said we've seen a huge spike in young men coming into the church. Some surveys show attendance rising among young adults.

(34:58 - 35:05) Pew's polling doesn't find a national revival. And it says the gap between young men and women is closing largely because young women are leaving. So the surge isn't established.

(35:06 - 35:16) Steven's question still stands. Are they still there six months later? If you're walking into something new, set a date six months out and ask yourself if you're in the right place. We've done a few episodes on how religion shapes masculinity.

(35:17 - 35:27) This one we spent time on how the Christian warrior script breaks down. If you're running it at home, tell me where it worked for you in the comments. I'm Tim Winnike and this has been American Masculinity's 68th episode.

(35:27 - 35:28) Thanks for listening.