Tim Wienecke (00:05.385) Men don't fade, they disappear. I'm Tim Winnicke, and as a clinician working with men, I see this a lot. Guys don't show up when they get shaky. They wait until collapse. Since a lot of men won't walk into therapy, how do we get them the support that holds? To help us answer that, we have coach and author Nicholas Papalopoulos. Why can't I just said it right? I just said it right. No, man, I'd so wrong. To help us answer that, we have coach and author Nicholas Papadopoulos. Nick, welcome, man. I'm so glad you're here. Nick Papadopoulos (00:23.052) You said it perfectly before. Nick Papadopoulos (00:31.768) Thank you, Tim. Appreciate it and I appreciate you pronouncing my name correctly. Tim Wienecke (00:35.581) We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna do it, man. That's it's funny as it's why I go back and re-record those things. so part of why I really wanted to have you on for the topic was because of the book you did w with Jake. and it really gave a clear insight into the differences between kind of men's work groups and therapy. Nick Papadopoulos (00:41.336) Mm. Nick Papadopoulos (00:58.734) Right. Tim Wienecke (01:00.617) But it was also really telling to see a number of the characters do the same things that we see guys do to not get to therapy, right? To not get to the help they need. In your experience, when does pulling away for guys start to feel like strength? Nick Papadopoulos (01:11.0) Correct. Nick Papadopoulos (01:17.624) When you say pulling away, what do you mean, Tim? Tim Wienecke (01:19.869) Like that isolation that guys do. That like I know I'm struggling and all of a sudden I'm just locking more and more down and pulling away from the support that I could have. Nick Papadopoulos (01:28.694) Yeah. I mean that is pretty typical of men. and my experience has been it happens also with men who Tim Wienecke (01:33.642) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (01:41.295) Who, as they're growing in their careers, growing in their lives, right? Their lives are expanding, meaning they get married, they have kids, they their responsibilities are growing. At work, they're evolving, their career is evolving, right? As the game, quote unquote, the game gets bigger for them, it seems like their circles, in particular the let's call it their friends, their confidants, become smaller and smaller. And that can be really dangerous because you end up isolating yourself. Number one. Number two, men are ready by default operate in their heads and sort of live in their heads. And so when your circle is getting smaller and smaller, yet the game is getting bigger, right? You're you know, all these different events are happening in your life, you know, baby being born, getting married, getting divorced, buying a home, etcetera, you know, elderly parent, you know, dealing with an elderly parent, all these different pivotal moments that you're navigating, you're navigating it alone, that's that's a huge burden on s on Tim Wienecke (02:41.673) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (02:50.852) one on one person. And what I've also noticed in heterosexual relationships in particular is that as as the man's world gets smaller and smaller Tim Wienecke (02:52.446) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (03:03.862) they end up relying on their spouse, their partner, their girlfriend more and more. And their their their wife, partner, girlfriend becomes their therapist, their financial advisor, their coach, their rabbi, their priest. and then w and then that has an impact, right, on their physical intimacy or how a woman is interacting and relating to the man. I mean, often the man is then showing up as a boy because I just need I need help. I need Tim Wienecke (03:06.91) More and more. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (03:31.068) Nick Papadopoulos (03:33.806) I can't figure this out on my own, right? Or I'm pouting, leave me alone. Right. So yeah, that it it can get really, really dangerous, I I believe. I I think it's a good word to use. Dangerous when a man is isolating. Tim Wienecke (03:35.292) Or I'm pouting, leave me alone. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (03:48.082) Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and I think the the trajectory of life that you talked about is the thing that kind of really rung out to me was as you progress through kind of traditional like US career progression as a guy, those smirkles do get small. You go from like school where you're in with thirty kids, whether you like it or not. Then you go to college where there are different kids and they change a little bit more often, but everything is organized around activity. And then all of a sudden we're trying to do what our grandfathers did. Which like my grandfather was a company man and he had the same group of guys on the way up. Right? He knew the guys he worked with, he knew for twenty, thirty years. Now we bounce jobs. Nick Papadopoulos (04:23.032) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (04:26.808) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (04:34.112) And or work remote. And or hyb hybrid for that matter. But you you work remote or you work for a company that's not local in your you know, in your neighborhood or city or town for that matter. Tim Wienecke (04:35.741) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (04:39.132) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (04:44.712) Yeah, and so the like all those things, like you said, that isolation keeps building just from a logistics standpoint, where you're just not around people to connect with. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (04:54.264) Correct. I mean women traditionally do do really, really well. They're really effective at building that infrastructure of support. They have their Monday person for A, their Tuesday person for B, et cetera, right? Where where guys again i we're not i I'm making a generalization, but I'm saying generally are not wired that way. When I work with men in an executive coaching capacity, one of the questions I always ask when I'm first meet someone is why are we meeting, like why now, you know, like what's yeah, what's going on? What's what's significant today versus why didn't Tim Wienecke (05:16.436) Sure. Tim Wienecke (05:30.664) Yeah, what's going on? Nick Papadopoulos (05:35.199) me we meet last month or six months ago and the the answer yes it's it varies in in the words they use or their their sentiment and the way they wa way they frame it but generally the sentiment is I need to have a real conversation. I you know, I there's one gentleman in particular who was a COO of a large company and I I asked him that question, why are we meeting? Why now? What's happening? You know, what's different today than it was a month ago? And he said, well, he said, you know, my wife and I had a baby six months ago. we're not having sex. My father has cancer and is likely not going to make it, and I'm in a political war with the CFO of the company and I'm losing that w that battle. And and he said, I've tried talking to the guys, the dads in my neighborhood where we go for beers, but all they want to talk about is who made this beer and you know, the g the score of the game on T V and you know, sort of complaining about our jobs and he said that's not enough. And and so it's really important that men have an opportunity to have let's just call it real conversations. N again, nothing wrong I love sports, you know, I'm Tim Wienecke (06:39.475) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (06:51.982) I'm a big Yankees fan, looking forward to October baseball. that conversation, if you and I have that conversation, it's gonna last eight minutes, right? I mean, how much can you really say? Exactly. It'll be a great eight minutes, and then and then what, right? And so that that's really the response I get, you know, from from men, especially men who are in a who are playing a big game, right? I need to have a real conversation. Tim Wienecke (06:55.475) Yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (07:00.882) Yeah, and and I'm I'm gonna enjoy that eight minutes, right? Like but but yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (07:10.387) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (07:15.73) Yeah. Yeah, what I find is the the mentorship aspect really it kind of comes in and I was just thinking about this with my grandfather, right? Like he had mentors and then he moved into mentorship and it was all within a structure that held that. And now we're so transient in our profession that we don't have someone that sets us down for the conversation like we used to. Nick Papadopoulos (07:35.682) Yeah. Yep. Nick Papadopoulos (07:41.622) Right. Right. Tim Wienecke (07:42.385) And, you know, I wasn't in the rooms with my grandfather. I don't know if they did it or not, but that was the take that, you know, you the company takes care of you because you take care of your people, right? And now we don't we don't have that. And I think that's why coaching's blown up is because we've we don't have natural channels for guys to be around other guys that can like guide them through something difficult. Nick Papadopoulos (08:02.19) Yes. Yes. Yes. And and therapy is too far for them often to go, right? Like, well no no no not not a therapist. Not whoa whoa. Right. Coach a coach at least we can talk about performance. We can talk about the relationships at work, right? You know, how to delegate differently better, right? Like that's that's safe. but no no no don't don't put me on the couch. Tim Wienecke (08:10.452) Yeah. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. I'm not talking about my feelings for an hour every week. Tim Wienecke (08:27.294) Yeah. Well, I think that's the it's a it's a big part of why this podcast exists is for the guys to hear that therapy doesn't have to be what they're afraid of. Like good therap like we you and I were talking about before, good therapy, if you're paying somebody a hundred to two hundred dollars an hour and they don't have answers for your questions, you're with the wrong person. Right? If you're paying somebody a hundred to two hundred dollars an hour and they can't make a room where you can talk, you're paying the wrong person. You need both. Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (08:40.857) Mm. Nick Papadopoulos (08:51.833) Sure. Right. Nick Papadopoulos (09:00.001) Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. Tim Wienecke (09:02.514) Yeah, yeah. But it gets intense, man. So I what I was thinking about with the book is you did really good writing with the characters in this. Like like for me, the I found guys that I've lost in the characters. Because between the military and college I've moved so much, I've lost so many friends in all the transitions. Like the way that the guys pulled back, the reasons they were pulling back were there. Nick Papadopoulos (09:14.233) Thank you. Nick Papadopoulos (09:20.419) Right. Mm. Tim Wienecke (09:32.112) And then they found like shoulder to shoulder bonding through the group. What turns guys doing something together where they're doing an activity to guys connecting where they can have those conversations? How does that work? Nick Papadopoulos (09:36.995) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (09:50.401) Inside of a men's circle, you mean? Tim Wienecke (09:52.329) Or just generally, man. Like the men's circle I think facilitates it really well. But in your experience, why is that so important to have something to do together before you can talk to each other? Nick Papadopoulos (09:56.312) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (10:03.757) Yeah, it's interesting. you know, I have both I I've been leading and facilitating men's groups for twenty two, twenty three years now. And I do both I have virtual men's groups, I also have in person men's groups. So it's easier to do this in person. with the in-person group, we always do something, something physical, to get out of our heads. Because again, a man's default is operate from his head rather than his heart, right? and so even even with the virtual groups, we will always start every session with a medit a guided meditation. Tim Wienecke (10:28.125) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (10:34.076) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (10:43.601) li and right after the guide of meditation we will do a breakout room immediately, in a again in a virtual setting. Again, just to just to get them just to disrupt right, you know, being in their heads. and so there they are, they're in a break you they they're they're in a guide of meditation, then they're in this breakout having conversations with, you know, one or two other guys, and then we're coming back and we're sharing, right? so so it's it is really, really important to get men out of their heads. And and I would say that my approach has always been to find opportunities to to do that, to disrupt that automatic which is to, you know, live in our heads, right? And and and and and share from their hearts, if you will. Tim Wienecke (11:28.286) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (11:32.126) Well, I think having the the group facilitated to make the transition from shoulder to shoulder to face to face makes a lot of sense to me. What what I was thinking of earlier when you were talking about the the transition of life, right? Guys tend to build relationships by doing the activity, and then they spend the like kind of energy and effort of the activity on being face to face. But each time it happens. Nick Papadopoulos (11:36.729) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (12:00.988) It kind of burns up some fuel that they need to rebuild. So all of a sudden, you know, when they're going through a breakup and they need to actually talk during the basketball, when they got a sick parent they don't know how to talk about, when their marriage is struggling, if they show up and disrupt the game every time with something, the game stops. But if you haven't been playing with those guys for a year or two, they're not gonna have this time to talk to you about it. And I was thinking about that for college, right? You've got athletics. Nick Papadopoulos (12:09.389) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (12:13.465) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (12:17.367) Right. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (12:23.287) Right, right, right. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (12:29.822) Dungeons and Dragons, Minecraft, video games, right? It's all these things where guys are just doing something together. And at least when it's face to face, you end up having some conversations. I think video games make that a little harder to transition for a lot of the younger guys because they're not reading the cues that somebody needs to talk. Nick Papadopoulos (12:36.686) Mm-hmm. Nick Papadopoulos (12:49.101) Yeah, I mean you you you've referenced shoulder to shoulder. I mean I think that would be the most common way that men traditionally have have connected, right? If you think about the the executive I described that went to the bar to watch the game, that's shoulder to shoulder, right? The video game, shoulder to shoulder. Even even, you know, you know, I in in my twenties I played in a bunch of different softball leagues. That was shoulder to shoulder with other men. Tim Wienecke (12:52.104) Yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (13:03.837) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (13:15.443) Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (13:16.311) It was it it it was never actually face to face. I remember when I got engaged and you know, I was looking to meet my then, you know, fiance's friends. She had a lot of male friends, actually. She had more male friends than than female friends and and they were and they were quite intimate and close, right? So I felt I felt Excited, I also felt obligated, like let me have let me establish some relationships. And I remember scheduling lunches, you know, and there were four different guys and all four of them canceled. And I remember talking to my therapist about it at the time. And I said, What am I doing wrong? Like, do I have the cooties? You know, do I smell, you know? And he he had done a lot of work with with with men. And actually he and I started our first men's group together. Tim Wienecke (13:59.762) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (14:03.943) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (14:13.805) And he said he actually said he goes, these guys are are likely obviously he was making an assumption, but the hypothesis was, yeah, you're you're wanting to meet one on one with them face to face. That's that's really intense. you know, even you know, in the book, the the book that we're referencing that that Tim Wienecke (14:26.931) That's intense. Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (14:36.493) my my colleague Jake Fishbine and I wrote, which is The Men's Group, a novel of messy friendships, there's a scene in Central Park where the main protagonist, who has been showing up as super resistant, right, and super, you know, distant from wanting to do any kind of work on himself. He ends up in the Central Park with another man in this men's group, and he says out loud I mean, he's saying in his head, he's saying, Wait, there's no beer here. You know, we're sitting on this park There's nothing between us, right? Like we're sitting on this park bench facing each other talking. There's no beer, there's no food, there's no game, there's no snacks to distract us, right? And and Tim Wienecke (15:02.535) Yeah. Yeah, there's what there's nothing between this. yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (15:20.015) I I believe that that's a huge opportunity for men to get comfortable and to lean into that because something different becomes possible when we connect with another human without all of those distractions. Tim Wienecke (15:35.102) Yeah. I think the for guys, the distractions of the on-ramp, where I see them struggle is when they don't use the ramp to get to the next thing. Like I I like how Mark Manson talks about it. Like he's been really open about him and his wife moving to California and he's like in now in his forties trying to make friends, which is as another guy in my forties trying to make friends sometimes, it's daunting. Right. And what Nick Papadopoulos (15:59.589) Right. Right. Tim Wienecke (16:03.673) He said he's been coaching this stuff for, you know, twenty years now and he's struggling to do it. And it's finding an activity that you can talk about for an hour, like you're kind of obsessing about. That's why CrossFit is so popular, right? It's why podcast for middle aged guys is so popular, right? Nick Papadopoulos (16:15.406) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Tim Wienecke (16:22.375) But then what you're looking for is the second thing with people, where for guys, if I've got two tethers of activity with a guy, that means that there's gonna be a conversation enough that we're gonna get into something. Nick Papadopoulos (16:34.146) Exactly. Exactly. You and I yeah, it's a lot of work. You you and I went to we were both we actually met at a conference for men, men's mental health, you know, male transformation in in in Denver back in the spring. And what came out of came out of those con that that conference and the conversations, there's a couple of things Tim Wienecke (16:35.655) Yeah. And that's a lot of work. Tim Wienecke (16:44.295) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (17:00.964) that highlights what you're seeing. there's a guy in our men's group who in one of my men's group who was there and since then has started a nonprofit called Dudes Talk Dinner. Now he lives he lives he lives in Colorado. Idaho Springs, is that right? Is that am I saying that right? Idaho Springs is the is the is a town. And so he has started this concept, this nonprofit called Dude Talk Dinners. And I believe he's in about Tim Wienecke (17:14.011) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (17:20.989) Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the wave. Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (17:30.404) Half a dozen plus town cities in in Colorado. And what he's basically doing is he's bringing men together for an evening to have dinner. And and and just like like a like a prompt. Like, you know, hey, what's what's your high point, low point, you know, this year, this month? Here's the conversation started again, which is a little deeper than just, you know, how's the baseball season or football season or what do you do for work, right? and so Tim Wienecke (17:38.813) Yeah, and just you know. Yeah. Mm. Here's a conversation starter. Let's go. Tim Wienecke (17:53.255) What do you do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (17:59.343) And that's become really successful. I know he's got he's now starting to schedule these talk do talk dinners outside of Colorado. And then there's another gentleman who's a friend of mine who was actually a speaker, Mark Green, and he yeah, he was he was fabulous. I just saw him this week actually. And he he does this thing called walk and talks, where I he does it at least twice a week. Tim Wienecke (18:06.737) Nice. Tim Wienecke (18:12.807) Yeah, he was great. Tim Wienecke (18:22.449) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (18:26.138) think it's a Tuesday morning, Friday afternoon, and he meets with men at the at the entrance of 89th Street in Central Park West, and they walk for an hour. And the only criteria is you can't you can't talk about politics. but otherwise, to your point, like that it's like these are what I'm describing are entry points. Right? So if you're somebody who says, whoa, whoa, whoa, Tim Wienecke (18:38.717) And it's just a it's just a group. Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (18:52.204) Men's group is way too intense and too foreign for me. Therapy w what? Y that's yeah, yeah. My you know, my recommendation, if you will, is to find a walk and talk or a do talk dinner or or even just you know, by the way, you don't need a you don't need a walk and talk formal. I mean I my best friend, you know, my oldest friend who I've known since I was five years old. Tim Wienecke (18:56.869) Way like that's a lot of money time and crying. I don't need that in my life. Yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (19:07.613) Yeah. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (19:21.656) You know, we spent three hours in Central Park ourselves just walking and talking. And then it had nothing to there was nothing formal about it. And he's not somebody who's who's interested in coming to any of my men's groups. he's not interested in therapy. He's not interested in hiring a coach. Yet Tim Wienecke (19:26.195) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (19:38.461) Really important to have a friend that is not in this work when you're in this work. Keeps you sane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (19:42.316) Yet there we were for three hours the there we were for three hours walking you know, walking you know, walking Central Park and having a real conversation. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (19:48.498) Walking and talking. Well, I think that's the dream, right? I think that's the struggle is guys desperately want what you and your really good buddy have, but we don't have it with all the moves, we don't have it with all the career. And so all of a sudden we need some kind of container. And whether that's therapy, a men's group, a walk and talk, a dinner, or a basketball game or whatever, I think I think I think guys just need some structure around it where Nick Papadopoulos (19:59.024) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (20:05.168) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (20:10.831) Yes. Yes, absolutely. Tim Wienecke (20:18.919) Like there was a study that was done across cultures where men tend to lean towards hierarchical, structured social environments and women tend to lean more egalitarian flat. And so without a container, I think a lot of guys feel lost. They they need some like, what why why are we here? What are doing? Like, don't just have me sit down with a stranger and say, Go. Yeah. It's not good. Nick Papadopoulos (20:30.651) Got it. Nick Papadopoulos (20:35.558) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (20:42.722) Right. Right. Right. Like what is this? Wait, what? My my brain is short circuiting. Tim Wienecke (20:48.743) Yeah. Yeah, like I don't know you. Like I don't like why are you why are you telling me about your dad? I don't know you. This is weird. Nick Papadopoulos (20:52.923) Yeah, yeah. Well I mean yeah, I mean what you're describing is, you know, our society many, many, many, many moons ago, was structured that way, right? Where men could come together based on rituals, customs, you know, the the hierarchy, right, service organizations. And so a lot of that has gone away or has changed and so to your point, now what? Right? Tim Wienecke (21:10.685) Service organizations even. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (21:20.967) Yeah. Yeah. Like when we we lose the structures that made it so women couldn't get places, right? We need to replace them with something. And so I think we've done you've done a really good job of like articulating the different types of connection points that we can use. Right. Whether it's the two guys doing dinners or walks or a basketball game hobby up to a men's group or therapy, right? These are all avenues for connection for a guy struggling. How Nick Papadopoulos (21:27.311) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Nick Papadopoulos (21:40.795) Mm-hmm. Tim Wienecke (21:49.704) Do those guys like you've been doing this a while, you've seen a lot of different groups run. How does a guy tell whether it's a solid room or a risky room? Like how do they know they've found the right place versus the wrong place? Nick Papadopoulos (22:02.946) I mean the real answer to that is everyone is different. I mean you could have what you and I might coin or or relate to as the safest room, right? and and for somebody else it's it's it's not safe, right? so I do believe just like a therapist, right? I've I've I've been in therapy f since my late twenties and I'm now in my late fifties. So over the you know last thirty years I've been with different therapists. There have Tim Wienecke (22:06.13) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (22:13.277) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (22:17.48) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (22:32.92) Therapists that you know we didn't jive, right? And so it may it may maybe it lasted a few sessions and we stopped, right? the my point is it's really, really important to be aware. of what's working and not working and being okay with whatever reactions are there. You know in our groups one of our the most common word you will hear in our group is notice. Notice, notice, notice. Notice why you're saying that, notice why you're not saying that, right? Notice your reaction. Notice where in your body you're reacting. just notice. I mean another way said, right? That's about tapping into the unsaid, right? The subconscious, so that you can bring that to the said and Tim Wienecke (23:05.083) Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (23:18.414) you know, to the surface. It's also about elevating your emotional intelligence. And so it's really important to just be okay with this room is not for me, you know, or this room is for me and I'm I'm excited. I mean ultimately the the other way to answer the question is do I feel like do do I feel seen, do I feel heard? Do I feel this is safe enough for me to Tim Wienecke (23:29.725) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (23:46.451) Can I speak here? Nick Papadopoulos (23:47.972) Exactly. Like can I can can can I see myself leaning in, right, versus leaning out. I I mean that's what that's what's really, really important is, you know, do you do you feel like these are these are your people? And it's okay if it's not. I mean you know, just like when you you ja you go on job interviews, there are some, you know, companies that Tim Wienecke (24:03.239) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (24:08.765) Companies that you just don't want to be at. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (24:10.575) Y y y it's not aligned, not aligned with the vibe in the building, not aligned with their with their values, their mission. And others others you are. Tim Wienecke (24:19.677) Yeah, I think the vibe check is kind of the the basic one that a lot of people discount. Like I I wrote about a story about my first time in therapy, how I almost punched my first therapist. It it actually was it was really close. and that happened because I went for the third session when I knew and like my s my gut was telling me in the first session that this wasn't the guy. But I was in grad school to become a therapist. Nick Papadopoulos (24:42.002) Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Tim Wienecke (24:47.951) I needed to be good at therapy. He was like the guy that they handed me to, so I was gonna go. on the other end of that, I think it's important to be willing to be a little uncomfortable. Like that social friction can't be the reason you can't go because there's always some kind of social friction. It's more a matter of watching how those are like that friction's held. Nick Papadopoulos (24:50.267) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (24:54.128) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (25:01.424) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (25:06.159) Absolutely. Absolutely. Nick Papadopoulos (25:13.126) Yes. Tim Wienecke (25:14.439) Like w what I look for in social groups now when I'm like, you know, kind of trying to find my my friend groups as I expand them, is how people respond to the norms in the room a little bit. Like how much social signaling has to happen in this group, right? Are they explicit? Do I know the rules after meeting with them twice, or do I feel still feel really lost? Like I don't know how this group operates? Nick Papadopoulos (25:43.162) Yeah, I before I started my first group twenty-two years ago, I had been invited into a men's circle pr you know prior to starting my own group. And to your point, I appreciated that they these this group of men were coming together, that they were committed to being different, right? Yet what I found, the content of the conversation, I found I found the content to be derogatory towards women, to towards the women in their lives. And so it wasn't so much that I mean, yes, they were like hardcore, in your face, hold you accountable, and that was a bit uncomfortable and a bit jarring to your point. Like, yeah, there was there was tension there. And I'm like, okay, I can deal I can I'll lean in, right? When Tim Wienecke (26:15.227) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (26:29.042) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (26:35.705) the the the line they crossed for me was the way they were relating and discussing their significant others. this happened to be all heterosexual men. I just didn't appreciate it. And I just did not want to be in that space. that doesn't make them bad people, it doesn't make them wrong. It just that wasn't my tribe, you know? So so I I removed myself. Tim Wienecke (26:48.807) Yeah. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (26:58.439) No, and it's so common. Yeah, the that's so common. Like they've done studies now on it's a lot faster to bond over grievance. Nick Papadopoulos (27:09.487) Yes. Tim Wienecke (27:10.799) And so when you depending on the kind of work, the table you're sitting at, the sport you're and when people start talking, grievance is kind of a shortcut to feel connected, but it's also super thin, right? All like when I'm in a room like that and it this happens mostly with my liberal cohort of friends, right? I'm a therapist, a lot of my friends are super liberal, but when they start social signaling, if I s share like a like a more moderate view or whatever, like the whole room stops. Right? Nick Papadopoulos (27:19.227) Yes. Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (27:30.672) Mm-hmm. Nick Papadopoulos (27:38.897) He he didn't. No, he didn't. Tim Wienecke (27:42.491) What did you say? And and so there's this like if all we're doing is bonding over a grievance, all that has to happen is you to f feel differently about the grievance than them and all of a sudden it's not your room anymore. Nick Papadopoulos (27:53.979) Hm. Yeah. Yeah. We had Tim Wienecke (27:57.381) And so Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (28:00.039) tha what pops in my my mind is there was a guy who came to one of my groups. He came he he joined the group first three sessions he complained about his wife. Okay. And n none of the guys I mean the guys reacted like, Hey, got it, that sucks. Right. you know Yeah, like we hear you you know, like like gave him the space, right, to to share. Tim Wienecke (28:15.997) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's like what do you like while how are you with that? Like yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (28:25.286) The fourth time, so fourth session he comes in, because we would meet every two weeks. Fourth session he comes in, same thing. He's complaining about his wife and one of the guys. And this is typical in our men's groups, which is he said, Listen, dude, you absolutely can come here and vent about your wife andor anything else you want to. This is now the fourth session where you've done v venting. Like Now what? Like what what are you gonna do about it? Because he actually said, because otherwise I don't wanna hear about you complaining about your wife because it doesn't seem like you wanna do anything about it. And it doesn't seem healthy for you, and it's certainly not healthy for our space for you to just just to keep doing that, right? And he left. That pr that person never came back, and that's okay. You know, like, hey, not not for me. It's not for him, right? Tim Wienecke (28:52.795) Yeah, w where are we going with this? Tim Wienecke (29:02.332) Yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (29:10.301) Good. Yeah, yeah. He wasn't Yeah, I I just needed space to get this off me so I can go home. Yeah, th Well, and it's it's a thing that happens, right? Like the when I teach other clinicians how to work with guys on that, right? Somebody comes in and the amount of guys I see because their wife sends them is a lot, right? Like I'm gonna lose my marriage if I don't go to therapy, I guess I'm here for a while. And they come in Nick Papadopoulos (29:20.112) And that's and that's totally cool. Nick Papadopoulos (29:34.096) Yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Tim Wienecke (29:41.195) And they've got their complaints about the relationship because relationships are complicated. People have complaints. And it feels good to be heard, right? So you reflect that back, like, okay, this is what's happening to you. Yeah, man, that's miserable. Okay, this is what's happening to you. This is what she's doing. Yeah, I wouldn't want that happen to me either. But at a certain point, after a while, in therapy, I think it goes longer than a group, but I don't make it three sessions in a row just listening to a guy bitch. Like as their clinician, and I'm like, okay, so you hate your wife. Nick Papadopoulos (29:45.637) Absolutely. Tim Wienecke (30:09.552) What? No, I don't hate your wife. Okay, well, I've known you for three hours and all you've done is tell me how horrible she is. And so either they do, and that's a whole thing, right? Like, okay, you hate her, like, what are we doing about that? Or, like, okay, like you finally had a place to come and let this out at, and this is how stacked up that is. What are we doing with any of this? Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (30:15.644) Right, right. Nick Papadopoulos (30:30.256) Yeah, yeah. Exac which is which is really in a sense the question that that participant was asking the other participant, like, what are we doing here, man? Like it's like yeah, four four times? Yeah, the first couple times makes sense. Like you need a space to let it out, absolutely. Tim Wienecke (30:38.118) Yeah, like what are we what are we doing or like 'cause this isn't like I don't want to hear this. Tim Wienecke (30:50.002) Well, and think that's the the beauty of being in like a group versus with a clinician, right? Like in a clinician, you're paying for a patient's. So we're we're likely gonna let that run longer than like Joe at the bar. But it was funny talking to Mark Aslay about this because he's moved his whole career into just doing groups now, like as a clinician. And what he said is like, yeah, guys don't put up with it. Like, and we always know when a guy's finally really joined the group and they're Would you shut the fuck up about that? Nick Papadopoulos (30:57.21) Mm. Nick Papadopoulos (31:01.873) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (31:07.282) Got it. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (31:13.242) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (31:18.288) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I mean if to go back to your question, you know, like as far as, you know, how do you know what's the right space? In my space, you you're somebody who wants that level of accountability. and again, it's not for everybody. It's not and that and that's okay. There's like no one is right and nobody's wrong. It's just a matter of Tim Wienecke (31:18.736) They're like, Okay, man, welcome. Like you're here. Okay, like let's like, all right, man, what's going on? Tim Wienecke (31:37.298) Yeah, you want somebody to tell you like no Nick Papadopoulos (31:46.65) Again, noticing what works for you. I think that's really, really important. what I always Tim Wienecke (31:51.527) Well, and that's why and there's so many different things is like I'm thinking of twelve step right now where there's no crosstalk. Like literally the rule of twelve step is you come in and you get your story off of you and you don't have to hear anybody say a damn thing if you don't want to. And that's valuable space depending on what you're looking for too. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (31:57.042) Correct. Nick Papadopoulos (32:00.403) Correct. Nick Papadopoulos (32:04.199) Yep. Yep. A absolutely. Absolutely. What I always tell men when I meet them, right, and they're considering coming as a guest, cause usually what I I I offer what I what I offer is come as a guest a couple of times. See how this looks, see how this feels, check out the community, Tim Wienecke (32:22.78) See how this looks. Nick Papadopoulos (32:30.131) you could participate however you want. You could be, you know, quiet, you could be vocal, somewhere in between. Come and check it out. what I do say to them right up front and then afterwards, assuming they don't want to join the community, go find a space. We may not be the the space for you. Go find a space. That is really, really important you go find a space. I had a guy who I spent, you know, decent amount of time on the phone with. He was introduced to me, a referral. Hey, I want to come check out your groups. He started asking me a million questions. He was highly analytical. said, let me think about it. I c I could tell he was a no. but he got back to me and I said, Great. I I'm not I'm not selling anybody on Tim Wienecke (33:05.65) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (33:17.403) I'm there's nothing to sell, right? Like you either know, you know, it's good for you or not. All I said to him, what I did sell him was, I said, you you've got two kids under five, you're you know, relatively newly married, still you know, eight years in, you just bought a new house, you've got a career that's a little complicated, you need a space. Tim Wienecke (33:39.014) Yeah, you need something. Nick Papadopoulos (33:39.259) I don't care if it's one on one, if it's a you know, therapist, if it's a group, whatever, go go go do a personal development workshop, right? You you you need a space to to to to get stuff out. And it's totally cool that it's not ours. Tim Wienecke (33:51.131) Yeah. Something that's just popping into my mind, because I do the same thing when people call about a therapy, right? Like coming in as a therapist like to see me. We do a fifteen minute phone screen and any therapist who doesn't offer that is probably like I'd keep shopping. But it's literally just to make sure like you and I can like each other and you like how I talk about your problem. Like as your clinician, if I like you tell me what your problem is and I reflect it back and you don't know what the hell I said, that's not gonna change. Nick Papadopoulos (33:59.262) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (34:06.513) Right. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (34:13.266) Right. Tim Wienecke (34:20.496) In three sessions in a room. Right. And so what usually happens is like I get my referrals, so they're usually it's pretty straightforward. But for the guys that it doesn't fit, not only do I say, like, okay, man, you you still need therapy for what's going on, but I'm not the guy you need it from. What are you looking for? Like, how would you know? And then I get names for them. And and so I think the the thing that's running through my head is if a group or an activity has a hard sell. Nick Papadopoulos (34:22.139) Right. Right. Right. Nick Papadopoulos (34:36.295) Right. Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. That's great. Nick Papadopoulos (34:50.043) Right. I totally agree. Totally totally agree. There's not there's nothing to sell. You know, in fact, when we as I mentioned, our process is to invite somebody in as a guest t you know, you know, to two two sessions, I've had people say to me, you know, where let's that there's been instances obviously where men have joined and there's instances actually a lot more instances where men have not joined. And I I'll have guys say, Nick, we should not have done that Tim Wienecke (34:50.214) That makes me nervous. Like that's a little bit of a yellow light right away. Yeah. No. Tim Wienecke (35:04.53) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (35:19.929) exercise with a guest in the room or we should not have had that we should ease them in or like I think that we should you know change the you know sort of your your agenda when we have guests and I said my my response is always the same which is whatever's wanted and needed in the moment Tim Wienecke (35:23.686) Man, we should ease them in. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (35:41.352) That's what I'm gonna deliver. That's what the space is gonna deliver. And that's who we are. We it's important that we are authentic. I don't want someone to think, my God, they serve cookies and and and you know, milk and you know and sodas and you know, this is gonna be no, we this is who we are. Like, for better or for worse, like you know, I remember I I Tim Wienecke (35:59.827) Yeah. Well, and every time I've ever tried to change that, it's gone poorly. Like anytime I'm like, like so, I use this story a lot to teach with. I had a a patient come in, he was referred to me by a colleague that had spent six months into talking him into coming to see me. Not to go to therapy to see me. And we don't do that for a reason, right? You're always supposed to give multiple referrals. And so I really respected this colleague. This guy was in a lot of pain. Nick Papadopoulos (36:07.964) Meaning Tim Wienecke (36:32.708) And I felt this huge pressure to be the therapist for him. And the session went poorly. Like I ended up reflecting the wrong thing and the wrong way, all because I was trying to kind of make sure he knew I could see him. And he ended up having a panic attack and fleeing the session. And I never got to see him again. And it's because of what you're talking about. Like if this is what you're if this is who you are in therapy, if this is the group you're running, if this is the social dynamic we're in. Nick Papadopoulos (36:47.709) Mm-hmm. Nick Papadopoulos (36:53.395) Sense. Tim Wienecke (37:02.032) Don't turn up the volume or down the volume, just do what you do. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (37:04.881) Yeah. Absolutely. I had a friend who sent her husband one time to a group to our group as a guest, and you know, in the twenty two years I would I would put that as like top three heaviest sessions ever. That's just what and and he never came back and you know, and I wasn't gonna change that first of all, there's a group of men who are, you know, in the space already, you know, who have been committed to to this circle, to each other, right? To themselves. So yes, come as a guest, come and experience. And yeah, this is you know, you said, you know, relationships are messy. It's it's why it's in the title of our novel. I mean, i relationships are messy, friendships are messy. and it's okay if you don't want to get messy. That's totally cool. Tim Wienecke (37:47.632) Yeah. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (37:57.245) Well, what it sounds like to me is the, you know, if you're looking for a men's group or an activity group, it's a lot similar to how I guide guys to finding the right therapist, which is you're probably gonna have to talk to a few. You're probably gonna have to go see a few. And y there's gonna be times when you go in and you know it's not for you after one time, but there's also gonna be times where it takes you three times to figure out, yeah, this isn't bad, but it's not what I'm looking for. I don't I don't feel a place for me here. Nick Papadopoulos (38:08.798) Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Nick Papadopoulos (38:22.312) Yeah. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Tim Wienecke (38:26.642) And and so I think some of this is also just having patience and endurance. I I think w we forget that like finding the right social thing is work. Nick Papadopoulos (38:33.331) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (38:39.368) Yes. It's commitment. It's it's are you are you are you Tim Wienecke (38:40.849) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (38:47.086) able, willing, open to make the commitment for connection, for a deeper level connection. in in my line of work, and this is also from a personal experience, whenever I andor a client and or a group for that matter, or a team that I'm you know working with at a an organization, whenever a person or group of people commit to something, like really, really commit to something, they figure it out. You know, they figure it out. they and so if you're so my invitation would be for for men to commit to creating deeper connection. And it doesn't have to look any particular way. It can be a do talk dinner or it could be therapy, could be a a a a a w a Tim Wienecke (39:32.848) Yeah. Anything in between. Nick Papadopoulos (39:35.549) A personal development workshop for three or four days, right? you know, or or it's a hiring a coach, but or going for a walk, you know, being intentional. Being intentional about, hey, I'm gonna go meet with my friend and you know, walk Central Park for two or three hours, right? that is my invitation, though, is that it is important to connect. I actually believe as much as men might say. Tim Wienecke (39:39.002) Mm. Nick Papadopoulos (40:01.171) They don't want it or or or we've been socialized to stay away from it. We really I I believe we really want the connection. Tim Wienecke (40:09.56) Yeah. I I think we're we're built for it. We're just the inadequacies of it, the fear of it not going well, the lack of patience with it just being there. I think at least for middle aged guys, when we were in school there were all these structures around setting it up so that you could make friends. The guys who came up through school during COVID and all that really got hosed. they lost a lot like for them the social friction feels so much louder. Nick Papadopoulos (40:34.388) Absolutely. Tim Wienecke (40:39.45) and harder. And so the the other question is is like, you know, you're you're gonna go through all these, you're gonna find all these different groups or therapist or whoever. How do you know, like when you see a guy settle into your group and you know he's now like he's gonna be a like a long ride with you, how do you know when that group sticks? What should guys be looking for to know that they found the right place? Nick Papadopoulos (40:39.62) Absolutely. Absolutely. Nick Papadopoulos (41:05.208) honestly I think it's sharing. Are men willing to share? you know, where they are again, y you know, share share from a place of being seen, right? you know, I always say that our power or a human's power lies in their secrets. Right. Tim Wienecke (41:09.414) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (41:28.936) I mean Brene Brown talks about this, right? About, you know, shame shame lives, thrives, grows in in the dark, right? And so so what I've always experienced when met when when when it seems like, Tim's arrived, like or like this is Tim's home. is the moment that they open up about fill in the blank. It could be about their elderly parent, could be about, you know, struggling at work, you know, maybe they're in a political battle, it could be finances, whatever whatever it may be, it could be about their spouse or what you know, a kid. when they start to share without actually being prompted, like they're proactively opening up, and they're really connecting Tim Wienecke (42:13.189) That's how you know they're in the right place for your group. Nick Papadopoulos (42:15.219) That that's when you know like, they've arrived, man. and you know, the other thing that I look for is there's there there's there's two ways to share. I mean, I I think the two ways. You know, one w there's a few well, let me say let me clarify what I mean. I also know they've arrived because because when they do share, it moves the room. It it forwards the room. It it's not they're not sucking the air out of the room. Tim Wienecke (42:26.737) There's a few. Tim Wienecke (42:38.544) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (42:43.973) Yeah. They're not just taking. Nick Papadopoulos (42:44.385) they're not they're not just taking they're not just sharing because they just want to hear themselves. They're actually sharing from a place of pain, hurt, it could even be excitement, because maybe they're trying to create something different, yet it moves the room. Others other people in the room actually learn from the share, from the experience. That's w that's th that's when you go, okay, like this okay. That that piece of the puzzle fits now. Yeah. Like okay, cool. Tim Wienecke (43:15.857) Yeah, that's how I know I've I've turned a corner with a patient. Like it should take time to build the safety to share in in my experience. Like the guys that come in and immediately just dump their worst thing in front of you, that always feels like a test. Right? Like I got this thing, can you handle it? But the the big thing for me is cause I tend to be an oversharer because I'm a I'm a therapist. I listen to people's dirty laundry all day. Nick Papadopoulos (43:22.995) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (43:33.765) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (43:40.468) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (43:44.912) And so my metrics socially are a little off, right? And so what I find is what I look for to know I'm in the right place is when someone makes a mistake, whether it's me or them or someone else in the group, is there repair? Is there some kind of accountability and a discussion on how this is going to go better than next time it comes up? Nick Papadopoulos (44:05.503) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (44:08.943) Because I never feel right in a room until something like that happens. Because I'm just like I'm uncomfortable around perfect people, right? Like as I'm not and I'm just waiting for like, well, if they're perfect when I mess up, they're not this isn't gonna be my space anymore. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (44:13.001) Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (44:22.269) Yes, yes, yep. Yeah, we we we definitely in our groups facilitate from that perspective, right? There was a guy, just to give a quick example but like where it's like this is I don't want perfection. I mean the perfection is in the messiness, right? And a guy came late to group. I and when I say late, three minutes. Yet he always comes three minutes. Tim Wienecke (44:31.993) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (44:49.476) that's annoying. Nick Papadopoulos (44:49.937) And s and so and so I called it out. And like, what is that? Like what what what what are you trying to say? And you know, the immediate reaction was, Are you serious? It's only three three minutes, and then you know, there's a couple of other guys who are like, Are we really gonna have this conversation? And it's like, Okay, everybody trust the process. There's a reason why I'm bringing this up, right? Tim Wienecke (45:16.017) Yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (45:19.405) And it turned into this beautiful, deep, rich, delicious conversation and exploration. he was coming late for a reason. Right? And and and exactly. And it and I and I and and you know, the final debrief is this is not about the three minutes or the thirty minutes if he was late. It has nothing to do with being late. It has to do with the way he's taking care of himself, being stretched, whatever. All of Tim Wienecke (45:31.439) Yeah, of course he was. When it's consistent, there's always a reason, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (45:49.163) But it was this beautiful conversation and I do believe as a facilitator in a group, just like a therapist I would imagine, or a you know, as a coach, it I I I believe it's my responsibility to also notice and to pay attention and and to and to shine the light on on something. And by the way, I always say like I don't I don't have to be right, number one. Happy to be wrong. Let's just get curious, you know? Like let's just play this game of curiosity and go down that yellow brick road. And who knows what a what what might come up. Tim Wienecke (46:28.129) Yeah. Well, I think that's the the interesting thing about good coaching and good therapy is that like the folks that I hear So for therapist, right, I never get to see another therapist work. At best, I get to work with a couple's therapist who works with my patient and their partner. And that is the like best referral I have. But otherwise I'm just going for a vibe check, just like everybody else. And I imagine in coaching it goes fairly similarly. And it's Nick Papadopoulos (46:40.362) Mm. Nick Papadopoulos (46:46.442) Got it. Tim Wienecke (46:57.313) looking for that if their solution has to be the solution to help the whoever they're helping, they're not good at this. Nick Papadopoulos (47:04.022) Agree. Agree. Even in in our men's in our men's group, Tim, we I I I always as an example to you know to to build on what you just said, I always w when Tim Wienecke (47:05.477) Yeah. So Nick Papadopoulos (47:18.782) It's really really important as a coach to know that your boundaries. And so when I feel like, okay, this is now above my pay grade, I'm going to recommend a therapist, or or a psychiatrist, right? and I you know, in our group, if you were to if you were to be a fly in the wall, what what the the the the relationship between our group and therapy is it's like milk and cookies. Tim Wienecke (47:46.747) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (47:47.199) If you can if you can have both, right, in your life where you know, you have you you have the resources you're you're willing to commit, you have the time, all of that, having that one on one clinical focus, right, that has an eye on something you know, exploring something very different and you know, then you have the group, it's that's a great, great, great combination, great complement to each other. Tim Wienecke (47:50.843) That's that's that's it. Tim Wienecke (48:05.019) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (48:10.031) Well, and it and it goes so much better. Like I I love therapy. there's a reason why I teach it, there's a reason why do it. But my big beef with it is most clinicians don't help people make the turn to others. You know, they come in, we do our deep clinical work, you understand yourself, you have awareness of yourself, you change some behaviors. But if that doesn't lead to you having connections in your life, whether it's dating, some kind of group, community, something. Nick Papadopoulos (48:25.078) Mm. Nick Papadopoulos (48:32.383) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (48:39.358) Right, right. Right. Right. Tim Wienecke (48:39.973) Then why the hell did we do all of that? And what I see all the time is the guys that come to me from men's groups, the work goes a little faster because they already proven to themselves they know how to connect. Nick Papadopoulos (48:53.214) Yes. Yeah. I mean a big a big part of our Big part of our DNA, our ethos is that is is to take whatever work we're doing in the space and bring it to the world, right? Bring it to their relationships, to their community, to their business, to their to their house. I always say that if you keep it just within these four walls, if you will, right, t w that's stingy, even selfish, and small. and I know that may seem harsh, but if if if the work that I'm doing Th the work that I'm doing needs to inspire the people in the room, the men, to go and share this work. Not not share this work, share the results, share the insights, share or you know, go try on, you know, a new pair of jeans, right? because we had a conversation in the group. That's 'cause one of our core values is contribution. And Tim Wienecke (49:39.214) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (49:53.847) There's lots of ways. There's there's you know, contribution has a lot of different legs and components to it. One of them is take this work and go apply it and practice out in the world. Tim Wienecke (50:05.391) Yeah. Yeah. If you can't name what you're for and what you're against in a room full of people and what they're for and against, you're I don't know, I feel I don't feel like the friction's right. If I if I don't know what somebody's striving for to bring back into their world. Well so for the guys listening, it doesn't matter whether it's therapy, a men's group, a dinner talk, or a basketball game. But if you're feeling yourself disappear, if you're feeling yourself fade out from a problem, get around other people. However you need to. And the worse you are, the more structure you're probably gonna need. Like the more pain that you're in, don't be afraid to get to the right resource because a good one, like a good therapist, is gonna help you find those friends. It's gonna help you find that partner. A good friend and partner are gonna inspire you to go get the help you need. Right? But just keep taking your swings or Nick Papadopoulos (50:39.52) Yes. Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (50:46.41) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (50:55.594) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (50:59.466) Yes. Tim Wienecke (51:03.301) We're gonna lose you. Like we lose too many guys because of this isolation. Yeah. Well, so I I get to pivot to you now, right? As we're coming up on the end. And I'm not good at sequitors for this, as I unfortunately. But I am really curious, man. I think g I I've loved the answers from these for guys that have been doing some kind of interpersonal work for a few decades 'cause the stories were always really good. Nick Papadopoulos (51:05.034) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (51:08.63) Way too many. Sad. Okay. Nick Papadopoulos (51:20.579) Ha ha ha Nick Papadopoulos (51:33.686) Are you putting me on the hot seat, Tim? Tim Wienecke (51:35.297) I am. That's that's it. That's it, right? So tell us a rule about manhood you learned before you were twelve that's remained true through your life. Nick Papadopoulos (51:46.668) You know, I would say that I mean what I learned from my dad was to what I learned from what I observed from my dad's behaviors was that he he gave his power away to get people to do things for him, in particular my mom. And until I started doing therapy and I started going to workshops and doing men's work, you know, all of that, I would say that what I carried with me was that I played that victim role, that little boy role. Because what I observed was my dad doing it and actually getting something for it. Although he got what he got with resentment, you know, from my mom, he got Tim Wienecke (52:23.279) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (52:37.003) He got resentment, he did not get partnership, he definitely did not get compassion and love. And she really did relate to him like he was a little boy. And I learned that behavior. And it's taken it's taken me my whole life to deconstruct that. It's an on literally is an ongoing conversation for me. You know, how do I show up powerful? How do I show up as an adult? Tim Wienecke (52:46.576) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (53:05.139) in my in my in my relationships where I d again I don't give my power away to enroll people to do things for me. Tim Wienecke (53:12.389) Yeah. How do I make requests and hold accountability instead of manipulate? Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (53:17.28) Exactly. Exactly. Right. Right. Tim Wienecke (53:24.593) Yeah, I think a lot of guys get stuck in the the nice guy problem, right? Of if I do XYZ, I'm a good guy, good guys get A B C. And until you can articulate that it tends to go sideways. I'm really sorry your old man grew up like lived like that for so long. Nick Papadopoulos (53:35.585) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (53:40.492) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (53:44.095) Yeah, agree. Wasn't it wasn't a a a healthy dynamic in the house overall and certainly, you know, between my parents. Tim Wienecke (53:55.086) No, but it's it's one of the things, right? A lot of guys when I ask this question talk about what someone taught them to do, but a few of the really like sharp lessons are watching men do what they're not supposed to. Right. That sounds like you you know, you got the gift on the other end. It's a little harder one to take in. Nick Papadopoulos (54:01.986) Mm-hmm. Nick Papadopoulos (54:09.289) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean listen, my dad was an immigrant. He was, you know, grew up with Germans in his house in Greece, you know, marching through his house. I mean, didn't have the resources that I certainly have, you know, we have today. And I didn't you know, I didn't also get what I needed, right? So you know, both can be true. Like, you know, I have compassion for my dad. so you know, w what my dad you know what w Tim Wienecke (54:22.577) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (54:35.813) Yeah. Sure. Nick Papadopoulos (54:41.281) What I would say what I really learned if I even peel that back even a little bit more, because you use the word making request, is actually making a request for what I need. Because my dad my dad was suffering. He was suffering emotionally, he was suffering physically because he had d was dealing with an accident that pretty much, you know, impacted him for the rest of his life. Tim Wienecke (54:50.907) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (55:03.509) He was unable to ask for what he needed. I I just had that ha pop up from me this summer. You know, I was sh I was dealing with some medical issues and health issues, I got out of the hospital and I was dealing with these severe, intense physical symptoms, and I did not know how to ask for support. And instead it was coming out with anger, frustration, irritability. And guess what that creates? My partner literally wanted to not only hurt me, but wanted to leave. You know, my kids were Tim Wienecke (55:40.209) Yeah. Certainly didn't want to be there for you. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (55:42.379) She didn't want to be there for me. My kids were like, Okay, dude, like what's up? Like you're you s you know th you're being scary, right? And I realized I realized and actually with the help of ther my therapist I'm I'm literally not communicating what I need and instead it's coming out in this again, angry, resentful, reactive way. That's what I really learned from my dad and you know, the good news is that I have the s the resources, and the willingness to to to to make a difference choice, yeah. Tim Wienecke (56:16.773) getting to make a different choice. Yeah. Yeah. I I think the other thing that makes that really hard is anger is pain relieving. Nick Papadopoulos (56:26.872) Yes. Well short term. Short sh short term. Short term. Short term. Tim Wienecke (56:28.113) So there's a reason why when you're angry and you punch a wall, you don't notice for a while, right? And so that's why like folks with chronic pain or long term hurts, why anger is so readily there for guys, is because if nothing else, it you feel less pain for a moment in a time when you're really painful. So I hope that at least normalizes some of that for you that that happened, man. I'm really sorry. Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (56:50.518) Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Tim Wienecke (56:56.077) Next one is tell us about a time when pursuit of manhood hurt you. Nick Papadopoulos (57:03.544) I would say, you know, fitting in. you know fit fitting in with the other men. I you know, I I basically grew up with heterosexual men Played competitive sports, was in a fraternity, I was president of my fraternity. and so where it hurt me was this competition to get laid, to get laid more than everybody else, as a way to validate my worth, as a way to be worthy for that matter. you know, so you know, literally in college, you know, competing with my roommate who was who was gonna hook up with, you know, more women than the other. you know, the sort of badge of honor, if you will. I mean completely unhealthy in so many ways, including putting myself at risk. Tim Wienecke (57:53.402) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (58:03.468) You know, you know, having you know, having unsafe sex, you know, having, you know, sex in places I shouldn't have. I mean, you know, emotionally unhealthy. because it was all driven right, more and more risk. It was all driven 'cause it's always w what's in the background, right? Like what's driving the bus? And what was driving the bus was this lack of worthiness, this need for external validation, which Tim Wienecke (58:15.128) More and more risk. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (58:24.225) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (58:33.622) When when you're hooked and addicted to that external validation, there will never be enough evidence that I, you, we are enough. like the the g it just gets it just gets further, further away from you, you know, and so it's like, okay, I'm gonna go get in my case, I'm gonna, you know, go get laid again, or I'm gonna go have a threesome, or I'm gonna go have, you know, kinkier sex, right? or whatever the case may be. So this Tim Wienecke (59:01.698) One just keep needing more stimulus. Nick Papadopoulos (59:03.862) y yeah, this pursuit of the stimulus is super duper unhealthy and this competition that I grew up inside as a young as a boy but then also as a teenager, young adult, young man, super, super, super unhealthy. Tim Wienecke (59:25.306) Well, and I I think that's just a common one for so many guys because we're like particularly older guys, right? We're raised that our emotional validation should come through women. And then the only way we're allowed to connect with women is with our penis. And then it just kind of stacks on that. I I can definitely relate to that pain for a long time. Nick Papadopoulos (59:36.14) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (59:41.196) Yes. Nick Papadopoulos (59:45.346) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (59:51.098) Tell us about a time that pursuit of manhood empowered you. Nick Papadopoulos (59:57.542) starting my first men's group twenty two years ago. and and you know I was seeing my then therapist and he his wife was seeing my then fiance and so my f my f then fiance was seeing this therapist, this you know his wife and they also had a women's group. Tim Wienecke (59:59.877) Yeah. There you go. Nick Papadopoulos (01:00:25.661) And I remember she would come home every week after her women's group and share her experience, not about the other participants, but share about her experience. And I kept thinking, man, I want some of that. I want some of that experience. I want some of that connection. And, you know, my dad had just passed away a couple of years earlier. He and I, as I alluded to already, had a funky relationship. Tim Wienecke (01:00:25.668) Okay. Tim Wienecke (01:00:36.655) Yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (01:00:49.377) And I also had a really funky relationship with men my whole life. I mean, I'm definitely the guy, especially 22 years ago, who would have said, I trust women more than men. I am able to open up vulnerably and openly with women only, not men. And so I was really intentional about my therapy with him because I wanted to shift my relationship with men. I wanted to trust men, right? Tim Wienecke (01:01:14.564) Mm-hmm. Nick Papadopoulos (01:01:15.097) And and so as as as I started to learn about this concept of groups, you know, through through my my then fiance, I pursued him you know, I was doing coaching, you know, I was facil I was facilitating already. I said, Let's start a group And he it was interesting, he had all these stories about men. You know, men travel too much, they won't commit, you know, men, you know, men want want activity like we were talking about earlier in this in in this episode. He had all these different considerations. And I one thing about me, Tim, as we get to know each other is I'm a pain in the rear end. I'm an I'm a nudge. Yes yeah, like it's you know, when I want something and so Tim Wienecke (01:01:52.716) You strike me as a bit you strike me as a bit stubborn. Nick Papadopoulos (01:01:59.492) You know, the answer to your question is, you know, starting that first group, I remember you know, being in a room with eight men. and I remember we each went around the room and and and shared. And it wasn't so much that, you know, we shared, you know, super duper deeply or, you know, these like these deep dark secrets. We just shared at a different level. And I just remember I as as we went around the room and the final person completed, I just felt like This is my gang. Like I'm home. And You know, I I I'm really, really grateful for for that moment. I'm grateful that that opened up for me this whole new world of of men's work. And, you know, as much as I hope I give to the men in my circles, and as much as I hope that I contribute to their lives, they absolutely contribute much more to me. You know, I'm constantly growing because of them, because of our conversation. I'm constantly having my own breakthroughs. You know, this past couple of weeks, because I facilitate different groups. We've been talking about sex. And guess what I was talking with my therapist about? My relationship to sex and my relationship to physical intimacy. and so because there I am facilitating and there's the mirror. Right? Like, yeah, there's some stuff there for me to work to work through. Tim Wienecke (01:03:17.903) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (01:03:26.552) Yeah. Yep. Yeah, anybody doing development work of any kind who doesn't have their own outlet to process all the stuff that gets mixed up, that's always a a bit of a concern when I'm like so Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick Papadopoulos (01:03:37.307) Absa absolutely. Yes, I'm the same. I I I would even s I'd even go so far to say that if somebody really feels like they've arrived or they they they sort of show up like hey I'm I'm the guru, I've arrived, I'm the dude, I I'd say stay away or at least proceed with extreme caution. Tim Wienecke (01:03:50.532) Yeah. Tim Wienecke (01:03:54.71) I'm the dude, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (01:04:02.317) Every time I've shown up in a space that way, and it's usually from an honest space, like I think I'm the shit for a minute. it's where my biggest mistakes have occurred. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Every time. Never fails. Yeah, yeah. You know, every now and then your ego gets the best of you. Well, Nick, man, I I've lost this conversation, man. I'm really glad you're in the world doing the work you're doing. Nick Papadopoulos (01:04:11.278) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I love it. Hey, you gotta try it on for size every once in a while. Absolutely. Nick Papadopoulos (01:04:28.036) Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Tim Wienecke (01:04:29.422) And I I think we're gonna help some guys. Of course, man. I think this is gonna help some guys. And for the guys listening, if you're ever curious about what a men's group looks like, him and Jake's book is a really good insight into it. I really enjoyed it. It's a narrative, it's fiction, it's not you know, you're it's not a homework assignment, but it's really powerful. And so if you're curious about what these kind of conversations can look like in fiction, I can't recommend the book enough. Nick Papadopoulos (01:04:41.156) There you go. Nick Papadopoulos (01:04:51.609) Right. Nick Papadopoulos (01:04:59.428) Thank you. Appreciate it. Tim Wienecke (01:05:00.464) Yeah, man. And as I understand it, it's everywhere. Like you all have now it's a bestseller at this point, which is incredibly validating. Nick Papadopoulos (01:05:05.898) It's a bestseller. Yay. and yeah, that's a different it's a it's a nice it's nice to get validation that way versus what what I was doing in college. just saying. yes, the book is a the book is a best seller. It's available on print in a variety of places, and it's also on audio. And the audio book just launched about a week or so ago. The the book is called The Men's Group, a novel of messy friendships. Tim Wienecke (01:05:19.024) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's way better. Yeah. Tim Wienecke (01:05:26.968) And the audiobook just launched, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tim Wienecke (01:05:34.992) Fantastic, man. I will have the link to it in the show notes. guys, remember if you're buying books, we've got an affiliate link with Goodreads or sorry, goodbookstore.org. it helps local bookstores maintain their business and kind of sticks it to Amazon a little bit. I'll put links to both that and Amazon because I know some people just, you know, you got your card and got your points. But it'll be there for you. Nick, thanks so much for being here, man. Nick Papadopoulos (01:05:36.164) Thank you. Nick Papadopoulos (01:05:58.244) Awesome. Thank you, Tim.