Episode Summary

speaker-0 (00:00.182) We know that suicide rates and overdose rates among men, especially men between their twenties and thirties, are very, very high. speaker-1 (00:07.244) Rates are still higher in men. We think if the honorer die, it's this stoicism, this strength of I can't ask for help. speaker-0 (00:13.964) With a lot of guys there's that pressure of people won't reach for me. If I reach, I'll be rejected and that'll be worse sitting in isolation. speaker-1 (00:21.378) Assume, ask. What's keeping you alive? That might feel like a small step towards I'm connecting with somebody and it's doing some good. speaker-0 (00:29.068) What if you don't know where to look for the guys that we might lose to suicide? What would it be like to be able to find them? Hopefully by the end of this episode, you'll have answers to those questions. Hi, my name's Tim Winnekeep. This is American Masculinity. We're bringing on Kara Crossweight Brindle. She's a powerful TEDx speaker, educator, and clinician. And every class I've had, I've brought her in to share this knowledge because I want young clinicians to go out into the world. Ready and armed with the most up to date and best information on what's happening with guys in suicide in this country. Today she's going to share that information with you. Hopefully it'll help you in your life find the people that you're in danger of losing, and maybe get yourself out of danger if you've had those dark moments in time. Today's a heavy episode. If it starts to hurt, step away. Make sure to take care of yourself. Thanks so much for taking this seriously and listen to the topic. Let's get started. Hey Kara, thanks for coming on for such a cheery and uplifting topic. speaker-1 (01:27.756) You know, I'm always game for the hard conversations. Let's do it. speaker-0 (01:30.926) Deal. Well, let's jump right in to make sure that we're gonna get to all this because it's a pretty big topic. One of the things that I've been really thinking a lot about lately in regards to suicide is its connection to isolation and how we're starting to refer to the deaths of despair, to include overdose. We know that suicide rates and overdose rates among men, especially men between their 20s and 30s, are very, very high. What are you seeing in the research and data that's explaining some of that? speaker-1 (02:03.98) Yeah, it just makes me think of the twenty twenty, twenty twenty one data that came out 'cause we were all so dang curious about like, what happened in a pandemic? Did it make it worse? Did make it better? And I remember that all of the suicidologists were excited to see like the number go down slightly, specifically with like the young adult and teenage population when it came to death by suicide. But then we saw an uptick in those overdoses. And because we can't ask those individuals was this a suicide attempt or not, it it didn't really give us that heartfelt, happy picture we were hoping for of like, we all came together. And I think we're going through it again with the state of the world right now of like we're gonna see the numbers keep climbing because of isolation and fear and anxiety and trauma. It's just gonna get worse, unfortunately. I think in my own training in in suicide, but also as a suicide trainer, that really spoke to me that might help listeners is that suicide is more about pain than it is about death. And so when folks have the thought show up. For all the reasons you've named of like maybe they're in isolation, maybe there's like a big stressor in their life, maybe they're going through some trauma or abuse. Lots of legit reasons why it shows up. But when I think about it from the lens of pain, it all starts to make more sense. Doesn't mean like we want people in our lives to die by suicide or overdose. But it almost like brings clarity to like the whole why is this happening question? Because lots of suicides could be predictable, but not all of them are predictable. And I think people start to wonder, what did I miss? Which I never gonna get into that in this episode, but Just thinking about that lens of pain and overdose and suicide both have that. speaker-0 (03:34.87) you think it's gonna be imperative for people to there's so many people either listening or in that space where they feel like people aren't reaching for them. Or they don't know how to reach for the men in their life. With a lot of guys, there's that pressure of people won't reach for me if I talk about my weakness, if I talk about my pain, if I seek help, people like there's this dissidence. By if I reach I'll be rejected and that'll be worse than just not reaching and sitting in isolation. Is there any research on kind of those traditional masculine coping strategies of just like John waning it through? Is there anything that kind of like speaker-1 (04:16.972) The John Winning, I love it. I mean, you you put a name to something that in my head is the honor or die cul culture. The honor or die culture. There we go. Can't even get it out of my mouth here. So we see that with like certain areas of the country, even and like certain cultures, certain populations. Men absolutely are part of that. Suicide rates are still higher in men, right? So like when we think of the honor or die, it's kind of this stoicism, this strength of I can't ask for help. And I feel like that's what popped in my head as you were talking just now of like John Wayne, you know, call it an honor or die. We live in Colorado, which is considered the West, which blows my mind because I'm actually from the West Coast. I'm like, this is not the West, but like Cowboy West. And that cowboy mentality is like you're strong, you're stoic, you don't need anything, you don't want anything. So I see how that could resonate with some of your listeners of like, huh, there's like this whole pervasive culture to it of be strong. speaker-0 (05:08.678) You mentioned different parts of the country. I is there any information as far as political ideation, like the right or the left leaning, who's who we're losing more of or less of? speaker-1 (05:18.67) Question. You know, because suicide is still so highly stigmatized, people aren't really being open with their experiences with suicidal thought. Now the number keeps climbing. So we're always about two years behind. So right now, for like 2023 data, we had 16.6 million people who had a suicidal thought in 2023. As you can imagine, that number is probably under representing what's actually happening because so many people aren't forthcoming to say, yep, that's me. I had a suicidal thought. Now, with those suicidal thoughts doesn't always come plans and action and a death by suicide. But even just normalizing the number, I think is a factor. And then I think of okay, what are the top 10 states with suicide rates? That might be something that would tell us what's going on culturally. So Alaska's always in the top 10, Montana, Utah, Colorado is always in the top 10. And we think about if anything they have in common, it's isolation, it's rural, it's spread out, it's a population that's not concentrated. And then maybe that honor or die culture still comes in with the pioneering or the cowboys, whatever label we put on it. So I kind of think of those data points of like who's in the top ten states every year. And with the 16.6 million thoughts of suicide, we continue to hear from our community, regardless of race, gender, et cetera, that to tell someone I'm suicidal puts me at risk of being hospitalized, which then takes away that agency, that autonomy that I think men in particular really want. speaker-0 (06:41.87) Yeah, I was noticing a bit in the data around that too. I think the danger in the right is that very, very tiny box that men have to fit in, that like self-sufficiency, that like stoicism with a little s instead of a capital S. Like stoicism is a great philosophy I used in my practice, but the idea that I just always have to be stony, that's what kills us. Because you can't connect through stone. On the left side, the amount of shame I hear. From white liberal to moderate guys and how often they feel like they can't share it. They're in their community and no one wants to hear that a white dude on the left is feeling away. And especially what's going on, that's coming up a lot. And so I think it's this one is isolated because that's their perceived norm, and the other is isolated because they can't join. speaker-1 (07:40.566) Right. Just makes me think of like the stay strong, don't cry, boys don't cry nonsense that's been perpetuated for ever. And that's coming up when you share that. speaker-0 (07:50.626) Yeah. Well, and I think that's the thing is, you know, you have more liberal moderate guys who are trying to kind of change these things and try to do better, but they were still raised in this. You don't change these things in a generation. speaker-1 (08:05.676) Yeah. Especially not with that pain combination. And then I think about the people who have freely told me about their suicidal thoughts. It's amazing how much their brain convinces them that people would be better off without them. So they're back to that stoicism strength of like, I'm actually doing my family a favor to die. They'd be better off without me. And when I had a twelve year old say that to me, I was floored. I was just like, How at twelve years old have you convinced yourself so with so much certainty that your family would be better off without you? You're twelve. And so I obviously get passionate about this. I'm like, what the hell is going on? Why are why is this being perpetuated? But of course we're here naming that. Like this has been around for so long. speaker-0 (08:44.45) That's the darkness of it. I mean, I've struggled with sod suicidal ideation at different points in my life. And just being able to to disclose to guys how normal that is of, you know, I I get what it feels like if you don't feel useful that you shouldn't be here. And I always think back to one of the classes that you came and presented at where you did the data on the suicide notes. Can you speak to that a little bit about the words that people are using when they're on their way out to give us an idea on what guys are going through? Yeah. speaker-1 (09:13.876) So I think there is a gender difference that we see more suicide notes in males than females. But the notes about a third, if that. Like it's actually pretty low how many people leave a suicide note. And when they do, it's sometimes nonsensical. It doesn't make any sense. Sometimes it's apologizing, as we're kind of naming now, but more often than not, it expresses the pain that was on the inside, right? So it might be like, and this isn't professional sounding, but like the word vomit of like, here it all is. This is my last thing I'm ever gonna say or do. I'm gonna put this on paper. Now, I'm a suicide loss survivor and I've had two family members die by suicide who were both men in my life, both uncles in my family tree. And one of them left a suicide note that I never saw because I was a minor at the time of his death. But my parent, when I asked him, when I asked my dad, like, did you see the suicide note? He Yeah. And I was like, What landed for you? He's like, It made no sense. Like it was like he was accusing people of things. He was obviously hurting. Like that was the theme that my dad could tell me is like, Your uncle was hurting so much that like this all spewed out of him before he died. And so even when we think that there might be some comfort first from a suicide note, it's not actually comforting. It usually just expresses the pain. And then maybe the loved ones, the survivors, feel worse. But yeah, more often than not, there's men with suicide notes. And we think of like Kurt Cobain and his note, which is very public, is very much pain. Like it's just like all on the page, like almost like a rant of the pain, an apology. I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Which is heartbreaking as a clinician, as a human, that men don't feel like they can tell people what's truly going on before it's too late. speaker-0 (10:46.988) Yeah, for what I see with clients. I it it's interesting. There there isn't a uniformed guy I've worked with that when I frame it as it's normal to imagine our end, one of you thought about it. All of them have. Every single person I work with that's worn a uniform, to include the women, because you're around death. And so that's just kind of like, well, what would happen if? What would it take for me? And that I can't be of use. I'm too weak. Like I this is happening because I'm too weak to do what I'm supposed to be doing. My family in the money part, right? My family would be better off with a life insurance. My family would be better off with the providing aspect of my service to them than my humanity. speaker-1 (11:39.084) Yeah, so important to name the money piece. I also think the better off without anything comes from if they're struggling from substance abuse, if they're struggling with depression, PTSD. It makes me think of Dr. Thomas Joyner's work. I know I talked about this with your students. He talks about this Venn diagram of three bubbles, right? Of like one being fearlessness. I absolutely think of our military or people in uniform for fearlessness, seeing things I can't imagine. And I have a really good imagination, this is why I don't watch drama anymore or horror. So fearlessness is in one bubble. Then we've got burdensomeness, which we've already established as part of suicidal thought. And then we have isolation. And Dr. Joy would say when all three of these things are present, the capacity for suicide is there. So as a clinician, my light bulb moment was: here's a population, in this case, let's talk veterans, who have higher suicide rates and they hit all three of those bubbles. And so sometimes when we ask those folks who are actively suicidal, It's not the money, it's I'm not functioning well enough. I'm not contributing, maybe not even financially, just like in life because of my diagnoses. speaker-0 (12:40.898) Yeah. It's it's interesting too when I talk to my veteran buddies, there's a there's a morality around it that's a little different when you're aging in the veteran community. Where a lot of times the assumption is we have a higher rate of neurological diseases and we tend to get them far earlier. Right. So we have a much higher rate of MS, much higher rate of Parkinson's, and we tend to get ten years sooner than everybody else. And we don't know why. speaker-1 (13:07.598) Wild. speaker-0 (13:08.672) All those guys, and since it's so prevalent, we talk about it, then the conversation isn't like how to live through that. The conversation is when to stop living through that. Uh-huh. Of just like when do I not want to be here anymore? And it's just like like it's heavy. It's not spoken of flippantly. It's not spoken of dismissively. But it is just an assumed at some point I won't want to do this anymore. Mm-hmm. speaker-1 (13:35.874) And there's something admirable about that truthfulness too, right? Like from the place of humanity, we've all thought about our death. We've all thought about maybe maybe not everybody, but like what our funeral would look like, or you know, what people would say. That's an actually very powerful therapy exercise, FYI listeners. speaker-0 (13:51.81) Mm-hmm. Say more about that. speaker-1 (13:53.71) There's there's something to that. But I've lost my thought here, Tim. There's so many speaker-0 (13:59.758) Say more about that exercise you just said for listeners. speaker-1 (14:02.502) for for this like eulogy exercise, for lack of better word, I know some people have done it in family therapy where they're like, hey, I'm not feeling appreciated, I'm not feeling valued. Let's go through this pretend funeral as if I wasn't here. And I'm gonna witness it. I'm gonna lay on the floor as if I was not alive. And I'm gonna witness my family say their last thoughts and memories of me as if it was a service. And like even the thought of it makes me want to cry. Like it's just like it's so powerful. But for those folks who are going through the narrative of I'm a burden, I'm a burden, I'm a burden. Can they take that in? Like maybe this would be a really powerful intervention for someone who's actively suicidal. Of like, would you ask your family what they would say? And they'd be like, I'm devastated. I'm never gonna forget you. You're my parent. I don't know how you could leave me. Like, there's so many thoughts there that I think when we're in our full suicidal thoughts, they're not coming in. Like we're not receiving that. But when someone articulates it in this mock funeral, we hear it. We hear it loud and clear. speaker-0 (15:00.354) Yeah. Yeah, as you were saying that I was I just connected two dots in my mind around the like what men are trying to leave for families is we want a financial legacy of some point. Like in particular guys that are older, this like I want to leave my family well. Like if I was a good man, I've left the world with more than I took. And I think that is a good masculine goal. I I think that there are ways to do that, but we need to detach it from money. speaker-1 (15:30.67) That's right. speaker-0 (15:31.018) Right. Like just a good person who's lived a good life leaves the world better than they found it, I think is a very admirable, very doable thing for most of us. But the cost of end of life care contributing so much to the bankruptcy of families. As that number has gone up, has suicide rates among the elderly gone up? speaker-1 (15:53.824) yeah. I mean, I was thinking about the ages earlier when we were chatting of like the highest suicide rates are in eighty-five and older. So when we think about like the stage of life, as you just named, there might be like decline physically. We've lost loved ones, and we've lost a big chunk of our community. We're probably not working. And if we are, we're not working in the same ways that we used to. So like the clock is ticking kind of feeling for 85 and older. Plus, Alzheimer's, dementia, and things are more common in 80 and older. So 85 and older tracks for me, regardless of gender. The second most at-risk group is 65 and older. So again, change of life, life transitions, even though I hate that phrase because I'm like, what the hell are we talking about? Which life transition? They're showing up there. Retirement, divorce, marriage, death, widow, whatever that looks like. And so financially, I remember hearing this from a a colleague. She said it takes $12,000 for like assisted living in some of these places. $12,000 a month. So if you're like, hey, I've never been rolling in the dollars, how am I supposed to sustain that for 10, 15, 20 years, depending on what's going on with my health. So that financial pressure, I could see why that now is coming up as can I take my own life, put people in a different place? This is now noble of me to do. And we are seeing an uptick of educated so think masters and doctorate level individuals who are taking their life by suicide. So like I'm aware that I don't want to live through the decline of my mind or my body. I don't want to exist in that. So they're making that choice. Which feels so different than the narrative that you and I had to go into a grad school saying, we have to save everybody. We have to convince them to live, which is a whole different platform where I could talk about that. Mm-hmm. speaker-0 (17:27.278) Well, and it I've always had a hard time with that because just from my veteran community, from like I think some of it's just how I was raised and there's probably some dissidents there. But I don't like that we force people at a certain level of ability to stay if they don't want to. I think it's cruel, I think it's destructive, and I'm not supposed to say that as a clinician. speaker-1 (17:53.282) So yeah, but I'm right here with you going, like, who am I to look at a client and say, I know better than you. I'm gonna keep you alive. Like, what did we go from client first, humanistic, person centered to I am now the gatekeeper of figuring out if you should live or die? Like that is, I mean, I know that feels like pretty dramatic to say it that way, but we are getting some sort of message of as a professional, I know better than you. And that is never how I wanted to show up in my clinical work. I do not know better than my client. They are the expert in their own life. My job when it comes to suicide. is to help them think about what is here to keep them alive. What is keeping them going. Not to convince them to stay or go, but to stay curious. And I think that is shifting in our community. If I can have my way, it will be shifting. speaker-0 (18:35.886) Well and it and it's starting to rate like a how many states now have legalized suicide assistance? speaker-1 (18:41.662) gosh, I don't even know because they keep trying to change the name of it. So for a while it was physician assisted suicide and then it was medical assisted aid in dying. And so like just tracking each state's language for it. I haven't ha I don't have a temperature track right now on that. speaker-0 (18:56.834) It's expanding, which I I think overall k will be a good thing as long as we protect people. I I guess to kind of bring this back around to the the people listening to this, when we see the older people in our life, and I know we've talked a lot about this in our classes and in our training, of there's this hesitancy to ask. Which then leaves someone in isolation. speaker-1 (19:23.864) Right. speaker-0 (19:25.696) What would you say to a son or a grandson who saw a family member struggling? speaker-1 (19:33.23) So many things I want to say. The first of which is you've started to allude to we have this pervasive myth that if we ask about it, we give someone the idea. So let's just say that to listeners right now. That is a complete myth. If you ask someone about suicide, two things will happen. If they're truly suicidal, it gives them permission. You've modeled for them it's okay to talk about it. So now they're gonna tell you, yes, I'm suicidal, and a conversation can be had. If it's not part of the person's experience, they will quickly correct you. Nope. I am not suicidal. This is not the direction we need to go. And you move forward. So both of these outcomes in my mind are positive in the sense of you have some information now you didn't have before. You're not guessing, you're not assuming, you're outright asking, are you suicidal? Are you having suicidal thoughts? Do you want to die right now? And so I'm modeling that even in this podcast to be like, go direct. Don't circle around it. Don't be like a little shark circling around and all soft. Like show the person that you care enough about them to ask the them in the words. Are you suicidal? Use the word suicide if you can. speaker-0 (20:33.91) Well and I think that's just culturally competent with those kind of the the boomer generation and the like later Xers that we'd be talking about. Those guys don't know how to talk in another way. They're not gonna get soft language. They're gonna be like, Yeah, it's hard, what? speaker-1 (20:52.568) Yeah, not to mention the soft language might unintentionally tell the person I'm asking that I'm not comfortable. Which if I'm not comfortable, why would they open up? I don't care if you're a clinician, a grandson, a father to the person, like if you're not comfortable, why would they tell you the truth about suicide? speaker-0 (21:08.6) Well, it's one of the things I I learned from you that modified on how I teach some of those interventions on when we're going through our disclosure of like when is the line for reporting? And making sure that you say something along the lines of this isn't a guide on what not to tell me. This is a guide on if you tell me these things, I need to know them because this is the resource changes. speaker-1 (21:30.99) Yeah. That's right. that's nice to hear that that tracked for you of like, okay, like with clients, we're gonna say, I wanna talk to you about it so I can make a choice with you. I don't wanna make a choice without you. Like if you tie my hands by saying, I don't wanna talk about suicide, but I am suicidal, there's not much more choice I have other than hospitalization. But I always told my clients and my supervisees and my students, I want hospitalization to be the last resort. And if our community at large could hear that, they'd probably be a little bit more forthcoming about their suicidal experience if they knew that their loved one or friend or pastor or whoever was not gonna put in a hospital because that feels very traumatic. speaker-0 (22:05.784) Yeah. Yeah. I I always like the idea of putting it down. Like for hospitalization. That the I've had a few clients go now. And luckily, like we've talked about before, I've n I haven't lost anybody, but I've I've had a number of close calls. And the ones that catch it before the attempt and go is because like you get to put this down for a little while. Like a forty eight hour hold it It's gonna put this down, you don't have to fight it anymore. They're gonna fight it for you. And it's gonna increase the access to resources that you'll have. How does a how does a forty eight hour break sound? speaker-1 (22:48.654) I love that because so many of us, no matter we've got going on, with like a break from whatever life, parenting, work. I like that language a lot. For my client who did die by suicide, she was female, but she said, I'm just so damn tired, Kara. I'm tired of fighting. So that showed up as you were just sharing that of like, huh? Yeah, so many people, the pain feels inescapable. It feels unchangeable. They're tired of fighting. It's mentally and physically exhausting to do this day in, day out. As a human to human, I understand. what they're telling me 'cause I've also had my own suicidal thoughts like you have. I get it. Doesn't mean I'm saying let's co sign that you should die right now. I wanna make that very clear to listeners. I'm not like for suicide at all. But I get from that human perspective why this is happening. There's so much pain. speaker-0 (23:33.848) Well, I think it's just respecting the it's an it's a choice. And if you don't respect people's efficacy, you can't have a clean conversation around it. Right. You know, we don't have to say I'm for suicide and I think suicide is a good idea in these instances. But what we can say is, what would it take for you to live? What would it take for you to want to die? And I think most people, when they get thoughtful, can answer that question. speaker-1 (23:56.472) Yeah. speaker-1 (24:01.282) Yeah. So coming back to grandson, we've kind of established like ask the question. You're allowed to ask your loved one, are you suicidal? And if you are comfortable asking that question, be prepared for the next piece, which might be like, What are your options? What are your resources if they say yes? Are you gonna panic? Maybe. You're probably gonna have an adrenaline reaction, because I still do, and I've been doing this for 15 years. So like you're still gonna be a human with a heartbeat that goes up and sweatiness or whatever shows up for you. Then what are your resources? Is it the hotline? Is it the stabilization unit? Is it going to the ER? Is it just sitting down and saying, tell me more? How did this come to be? So that right there is what we call the suicide story. This is Dr. Stacy Friedenthal's work. Lean in. How do we go into the suicide story with the person we love? So for grandson, it might be like, tell me more. What what's going on? And just sitting in that, which a lot of people won't do. We're afraid of pain, right? So we're like wired to kind of go away from it, to lean back, lean in. If you can. speaker-0 (25:00.714) Is there any good data on religious resourcing in these instances? speaker-1 (25:06.274) Say more about that when you say religious resourcing. speaker-0 (25:09.344) So I talk a lot with chaplains within the fire service and the police service, and we talk a lot about intervention and how to engage. And I know that good pastoral work comes with training around this. And there's a lot of bad actors that don't that step in out of their lane. Just like there's plenty of therapists that all of a sudden decide to be spiritualist, right? Like I get it. But I'm wondering if speaker-1 (25:23.971) Mm-hmm. speaker-0 (25:38.028) I know religiosity tends to be a protective factor. And I'm wondering like how would somebody suss that out if they you know, their family member is religious, they're having the conversation. How would they know whether that was an option for them or what they sh what should they look for for a competent resource, I should say. speaker-1 (25:40.61) Mm. Mm-hmm. speaker-1 (25:57.58) Hmm. I mean, feel like this is a twofold question this question because the first thought is like, what does religion mean to the person who's suicidal? And everyone to assume it's protective or could actually be one of the reasons that they're feeling suicidal. I'm just gonna throw that in there. Religious trauma, lots of things. So I think curiosity goes a long way when we're talking to people of all backgrounds, to be like, if I can stay curious, if I can stay open, if I can stay present with the person who's suicidal, that will go a long way. Makes me think of Brene Brown's video where it's like, here's sympathy, which is, that sucks for you. She doesn't say those words. Those are my words. Versus empathy is come alongside. Sit down next to them. Be in the pain with them, which is so healing, which is what a lot of therapists are trained to do. So that's coming up. But when it comes to like sussing out resources, I mean, I would be as a clinician, I'm looking for like the training the person has. So can a lay person ask, like, hey, do you have any training in suicide? What's your philosophical response to suicide? As a clinician, I'm asking what's your bias with suicide? Do you have beliefs about age? Like, are you have ageism stuff showing up? Do you have, they have a terminal illness, this is okay, versus hey, they're 15, this is not okay. Like know our own edges of how we might show up. So whether you're a religious leader or a clinician or a grandson, I think even just knowing our own stuff, our own bias is really important here. Cause it's gonna dictate how we show up and our response with resources. speaker-0 (27:20.376) Yeah. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And what what's coming up for me when it comes to being ready to approach somebody is you have to have emotional competency. You know, if you aren't in a place where you can handle their answer, it's okay not to ask them then. But go get the competence you need. That doesn't mean you get to abandon a loved one. speaker-1 (27:30.094) Mm. speaker-0 (27:50.558) And I think this is where the kind of fundamental shift I'm seeing with that twenty-five to thirty range of folks that we're losing is there's this assumption that they're supposed to be competent already. speaker-1 (28:04.014) Hm, like they have to have it all figured out. It's like the fifteen year old saying, I should be like, have it all figured out. I'm like, I don't know about you, Tim, but at fifteen I was a mess. Like I did not have it figured out. So I don't know why this generation thinks they should. speaker-0 (28:15.928) I I think that's the beauty of forty is you just stop trying to have it all figured out and just start surfing. speaker-1 (28:21.346) I call it the fuck it forties. Yes. I like that. speaker-0 (28:23.726) Just all right. No, and no one's got it figured out. Everybody's learning something. Everybody's failing at something. And if you didn't ever fail at anything, I promise you you never learned how to do anything well. speaker-1 (28:35.286) Mm. speaker-0 (28:38.706) And that's that's been a major push with clients and something I'm trying to bring to our listeners is if to be a man is to be competent, get competent by being comfortable that you're gonna make the mistakes along the way. Like anybody who's expecting you to show up out of nowhere with no training and no guidance and be good at something is an asshole. speaker-1 (29:00.49) How unrealistic that sounds, right? Just hearing you say that out loud. It makes me think of our our good colleague Alex, who's like, notice the human first. Everyone's human. We all make mistakes. Permission to make mistakes. To be real. speaker-0 (29:12.492) I wanna get him a bumper sticker, like it's a catchphrase. Yeah. speaker-1 (29:16.268) I quite him a lot in different trainings for different reasons 'cause it's like makes sense. It it resonates with speaker-0 (29:20.374) Just awesome. He's an easy guy to quote. Mm-hmm. So on that end, right, getting that support, if you've got a loved one that you're concerned about having the conversation with is a suicide crisis line prepared to talk somebody through how to have the conversation with somebody. speaker-1 (29:34.498) Yes, that is actually one of their trainings that they are fully versed in. I mean that's what I love about the crisis lines when they are working well, which this year we have heard some questionable delays and speaker-0 (29:45.822) You see happens when you cut the funding for them. speaker-1 (29:48.396) Yeah, different different problem there. A hundred percent. And so what I love about the crisis lines as they become more mainstream, for lack of better word, is they have videos that show like here's what you can expect, or like here's a walkthrough of a call. But yeah, we're actually encouraged to tell loved ones. You can call on behalf of someone you care about and you can be coached through it and or like here are their options, here are some resources, here's a question you might ask. So that nice like warm handoff slash hand holding, I think. really helps someone who feels paralyzed in fear of my gosh, my loved one is suffering and they're saying they're suicidal and I'm not a therapist, I'm not a pr pastor, I'm not someone religious. Like what do I do? And so they're panicked. And that person can walk them through. speaker-0 (30:29.77) Yeah, I remember a story in the military, adolescent cutting and suicide where it's not as direct line as people are afraid it is when they see it. And I think that lack of knowledge can really hurt us. So just having somebody with just a little bit more knowledge than you to mentor you is so key for these things to feel any kind of confidence around it. speaker-1 (30:48.162) Mm. speaker-1 (30:53.156) yeah. And even just this podcast episode hopefully can be some knowledge for people of like what's normal, what something we're seeing versus this feels abnormal. So I love that you brought up the self-harm piece, because y like you said, a lot of people are like cause and effect. They think self-harm equals suicide. Self-harm, there are actually like nine, ten, a dozen reasons people self-harm. And this is someone else's research. This is Dr. Jack Clotts research. I mean say suicide is one of nine options that people self-harm. So Coming back to that tool of curiosity, if we could just stay curious and say, what was the intention behind self-harm? That self-harming behavior, what was your intent? If they can say, if they can articulate I was hurting, that's gonna change the response, right? Like in your story versus I was trying to die by suicide. So because there are eight other reasons for self-harm, I never want someone to jump from self-harm to suicide. Like I want them to stay curious and ask some questions first. speaker-0 (31:45.07) And I I think that comes back to that kind of emotional mastery of when someone you care about is hurting themselves in any way, it's scary. It just is. And it should be. That's that's not an insane reaction. It's not an inappropriate emotional response. You care. Of course you're afraid. Of course you're worried. But then the way to be effective with that is to get curious. speaker-1 (31:54.19) Yeah. speaker-0 (32:11.904) And I don't know, one of my one of my big things that I've been pushing on lately with clients is we've started mistaking anxiety for worry. And worry is incredibly healthy. It's how we do things. And the way that worry works is as you develop out a plan and as you get inform more information, the worry decreases in strength. Right. You know it's anxiety when no amount of information is helping. speaker-1 (32:18.53) Mm-hmm. speaker-1 (32:33.874) Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Small amount of anxiety like gives us motivation, right? So like once something, like you said, is in the works, I totally agree with that. speaker-0 (32:43.63) Yeah. So what are some what are kind of the other big myths that you wish more people knew? speaker-1 (32:50.166) Outside of asking about it makes people have the idea. speaker-0 (32:53.102) And self harm. We've got asking about it makes it worse. Self harm is always tied to suicide. speaker-1 (32:59.138) I don't know if this is a myth, but it's definitely an assumption, which is to assume what keeps someone alive. Right. So as a young clinician, new to the field, I totally stuck my foot in my mouth with that twelve year old I was mentioning earlier when I said, here are these things that are keeping you alive. But I didn't ask it as a question. I made an assumption and said speaker-0 (33:15.87) Here's your bullet point list, right? This is correct. speaker-1 (33:18.27) So I said, you know, your family is keeping you alive. Your pet is keeping you alive. Like I just made a lot of assumptions. And did that 12-year-old like ripped me apart. She was like, You're wrong. Fuck you. Like I'm already hurting. And now you don't even understand me. Right. So I was able to repair that relationship and I learned a lot from her. And I will always have her in my head. And she's doing well. So listeners, I just want to give you happy news. She's doing well. She graduated. She's moved on in her life. But at that point I got a really clear message which is never assume. Never assume what it might be a protective factor for you as a human is a protective factor for the person in front of you who's hurting. Maybe it is their pet. Maybe it's their family. Maybe their family's the reason they're suicidal. I mean, we gotta look at both sides of that coin. Maybe there's something going on with bullying or discrimination. Maybe it's stress or pressure at school or work. Like there's so many factors that make someone stay alive versus want to die. So just don't assume. Ask. What's keeping you alive? That's the recommendation. Just ask it. There's nothing wrong with asking that question. I'm curious, what's keeping you alive? speaker-0 (34:16.246) I think why so many people have a hard time with that question is because they want to be one of the reasons. speaker-1 (34:20.886) Nah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or they want the children to be a reason or whoever. Yeah. speaker-0 (34:27.382) But I care, stay for me. And I think there is a acknowledgement when you're asking somebody for the service to suffer for you, because that's what you're asking. When somebody's suicidal and you're asking them to stay for you without any relief, you're asking for their service. Right? And I don't I I think family can ask for that. And right, make it less burdensome. speaker-1 (34:43.502) Yeah. speaker-1 (34:55.266) Right. Like, now I'm even more of a burden. So we've reinforced beliefs in the suicidal person that we don't want to reinforce. Yeah. There's a lot to that. Mm-hmm. So I think that's another key point for listeners is like, what's keeping alive? Ask about it. Stay curious about it. Don't assume it. But this is a conversation. It's not a one and done with a lot of people. You don't have the conversation once and never talk about it again. A lot of us who have had suicidal thoughts in our our history, they show up for certain periods of time for certain reasons. And then life might get better. But I think the more we can normalize that this is a process, the more people won't say, my gosh, I failed this person because I talked about it once and then thought we were good to go. It's kind of looking at my three year old and saying, Have a good cry and you're done, right? Like, well, maybe that's not how she's gonna regulate in that moment. Maybe it's she needs more time than I'm ready for you to be done, which is that projection. speaker-0 (35:44.622) Or or maybe like, okay, kid, you gotta put that away so we can get to school, but we'll come back. How are you doing? Yeah. Right? and I I think that's the other thing is there's this assumption that I'm gonna spend five hours hashing this out with somebody. And that's not always the case either. Sometimes it's the start of a conversation that you're gonna have over the course of weeks, months, years, depending on the relationship and depending on what's going on. And the few times that I've had the opportunity for those longer running relationships. speaker-1 (35:56.689) Mm. speaker-0 (36:13.856) They get easier, but speaker-1 (36:16.702) Could you speaker-0 (36:17.094) Do. Because now you're not so afraid of it's imminent. You're not so uninformed about what's happening with them. Right. And so the conversation gets more traction, gets more grounding, gets more connected. speaker-1 (36:31.97) Sure. Makes me think of the same person Dr. Stacey Friedenbahl wrote the book Helping the Suicidal Person, which is for clinicians and professional helpers. And then she put out a book a couple of years later called Loving the Suicidal Person. And she wrote in her introduction, she's like, if you need to, change the word loving to caring, because some people would like get turned off by the word loving. Like, I don't love my neighbor, but maybe I care about them. And so she had this invitation at the beginning of like, change the word if you have to. But what she did so beautifully in that book was she named the roller coaster of emotions. that we've seen when we work with clients who are the loved one of someone who's suicidal. The anger, the sadness, the panic, the grief, the I'm so tired of this shit. Like I mean, that's the human roller coaster response to suicide because it feels variable and unpredictable at times. And we're scared shitless of it. And so I want to acknowledge that for listeners, like just 'cause we do all this work and we do our own work to like stay regulated doesn't mean we're not scared of the possible outcome that the person across from us could die. Cause that's still possible. speaker-0 (37:31.382) Yeah. Well, and I think that goes back into the idea of people trying to be therapist instead of in community or in family. You don't have to not feel away about these things with your loved one. That's my job. Get your loved one to me. I'm the one that can hold that. You don't have to. speaker-1 (37:39.831) Exactly. speaker-0 (37:53.772) And that's also why it's so important if you're one of those guys, that this is on your mind, to come to one of us. Only one in four guys go to help when they feel like they need help right now. And I think a lot of it is because that there's that burden, there's that assumption of what therapy is going to look like, which we're hopefully dispelling for our listeners as they listen to these shows. Around therapy is not just two people crying in chairs next to each other. my gosh. speaker-1 (38:25.92) Or my twelve a different twelve year old boy saying, Hey, are you gonna put me in a dark room and maybe we looked at weird pictures? Like he thought that's what therapy was? This was decades ago. I was like, How interesting that that's what you thought this was Yeah. Yeah, not at all. speaker-0 (38:36.75) It's not this type of therapy. speaker-0 (38:42.765) Yeah. speaker-1 (38:44.684) Wow, one and four. speaker-0 (38:46.488) Yeah, one in four. It it's and some of it I think is resourcing. Right? We just don't have the resources. I also don't think that people are valuing men's lives in the way that we should as a society. I think that's been true for a long time. And I think it's easy for guys to internalize that of just the fact that we're human and living isn't enough to be here. speaker-0 (39:13.878) So for the guys that are maybe listening that this is on their mind, that they're thinking about this and they're not thinking from someone who's worried about someone else, but they're thinking like, Yeah, this is me. I'm I've I'm here, I've been here. What are the range of things that they can reach out to? So we've talked about therapy, we've talked about the crisis line. If therapy isn't what you have access to or isn't what you're willing to do, what are some of the other things to do in those moments? To try to put down some pain and have a reason to stick around. speaker-1 (39:48.244) Yeah. I mean, I feel like the big theme so far has been connect with somebody, preferably someone who's at least mental health first aid trained or someone who's not going to cause further harm when their own reaction shows up or their own shit gets projected on the person who's suffering. Because unfortunately that has happened to some of our clients, right? Where they decided to be vulnerable and tell someone and that person reacted poorly. And that's their own stuff. So maybe to your previous question of like how do we like kind of vet or source the right people? Is it someone who Has demonstrated some sort of comfort with mental health issues. Maybe they've said something online about it or they've posted about their own mental health or given you some sort of breadcrumb that tells you this person might be a safe person. We don't know until you actually try, but maybe that's safe. On the professional side, maybe you're looking for do they have trainings in some of the things like suicide would be mental health first aid, assist, which is from Living Works? Are they CAMS trained? Like all of these are like compassionate tools for suicide and suicide assessment versus the cold clinical checklist we come from. So that might be something that someone who's hurting might sniff out a little bit. But if it's not connecting in person with someone, maybe it's coming to your online community. I mean, I know so many guys go on like Reddit or other platforms and just like share with this place of from this place of being anonymous, right? Of like no one can hurt me, no one can like really rip me a new one if they don't know who I am. So that might feel like a small step towards I'm connecting with somebody and hopefully it's not harming me. It's doing some good. The other side of this in my head is safety planning, which I know some of your listeners are like, God, safety planning. But like it's really kind of doubling down on the conversation of what's keeping you alive. And so it's like, what am I gonna try when I'm in that deep dark space of like three in the morning, no one's really awake, or none of the people I want to talk to are awake? How am I gonna double down on I'm having the thought? I have a plan now and that's kind of scaring me. So like, do I need to do a healthy distraction? Do I need to go somewhere? Do I need to lean on something? So I'm thinking more of like the here and now tools of like listen to music, take a shower, put your hands in cold water. Like it depends on the person, what they like. But some of those like really accessible things. So it takes a minute to find the right person, but it could take a couple seconds to grab the thing that might help you feel better in the moment. speaker-0 (42:03.628) Yeah. I like that. And it and it's I don't know, the longer I do this job, the things that keep people alive are astounding to me. Like I I think we've talked about a few times where I've ha now had I'm up to four different guys I've worked with that survived a weekend 'cause they were dog sitting. Like that was it. That was the the thin line that kept them going is they had responsibility for somebody else's animal. Wasn't even their dog. speaker-1 (42:24.386) Wow. speaker-1 (42:32.876) is why we like pets so much, right? Is therapists like get a pet for depression, for suicide. speaker-0 (42:37.454) Well and dogs love is perfect. They love you no matter what. They can't help it. So yeah, I guess the the kind of story I'm hearing there is find some skills, find some plans, and if at all possible, find some connection. speaker-1 (42:52.608) Mm-hmm. And it doesn't even have to be a therapeutic connection. Like I also want to call that project helping, at least here in Colorado, for your Colorado listeners. Because project helping is like, hey, we know that people are feeling isolated. We know their mental health is tanking. Let's create thirty-two volunteer opportunities a month in the metro and beyond online for people to just connect. And I'll bet you, but like I'm not a fan of like speed dating. Hey, hi, how are you? Here's my name, here's what I do. So like volunteering feels like a much easier ask to be like, this is a passion. I'm excited about. I want to go play with puppies. Great. I can talk to people casually as I play with puppies. It feels like a different lift than going, hey, I have to be intimate and connect with someone and tell them my whole life story. No, we're just talking about puppies. So speaker-0 (43:32.622) That's the difference. Yeah, that's the difference between conversating and having community. Community is I'm around people who care about the same thing. I don't have to like all of them. speaker-1 (43:41.154) Yeah, love that. speaker-0 (43:42.83) Mm-hmm. And then some of you will and some of you won't, but you're all there to, you know, clean up that street, paint that wall, that's right. Fill that food bank. Whatever, it doesn't matter. People who volunteer are happier, which sounds weird, but it's very, very true. speaker-1 (43:56.93) Yeah, that altruism and connection of like, there I'm around other people. I remember when I used to live in a basement level p house when I was in grad school, I was like, my gosh, this like cabin fever, stir crazy feeling that's not good for my mental health. I would just get up and walk around the neighborhood. And every time I'd see someone I'd like acknowledge them, Hi, how are ya? Now I come from Washington State where people were not friendly when you walked around. I think this is why coffee is such a thing and why Starbucks came from Washington State as well as grunge music, just a theory. But like no one said hi. So when I moved to Colorado and all these people were like smiling at me, saying hey, good morning, I was like, Do I have tourist on my forehead? Like what's happening here? But fast forward two more years and I was like, I was leaning on that. I needed that for my own mental health as I was like a full time grad student with not many connections outside of my program. Walk around, see people, just being in a space with people at a park felt better than being alone. speaker-0 (44:47.546) Yeah, and I think that also, you know, sunsh sunshine kills depression. You know, just being out in the world doesn't it gives your depression less of a handhold to convince you you'd belong outside of the world. speaker-1 (45:00.696) Mm. So many mood shifts for the better when we're outside. We're blessed in Colorado with what? Three hundred plus days of sun. There's a reason that we're if it's in a better spot. speaker-0 (45:09.378) Being around people, right? Like give some perspective. Yeah. So as always, I love having you talk about these things. And I'm fairly sure I could continue to pick your brain for another hour. But I want to respect your time and I want to make sure we get to some of your story because I like to be honest, this has been my favorite part about a lot of the podcast is I have all these people that I like on and I get to know you a little bit better with these. So very selfishly, but hopefully. speaker-1 (45:33.752) Mm-hmm. speaker-0 (45:37.324) Our listeners are also finding just these stories to be a little bit more normalizing to get us to talk about some things that maybe we weren't tracking. speaker-1 (45:44.27) Game for it. Let's go. speaker-0 (45:45.902) Fantastic. So what is the truth about masculinity that you learned at twelve or earlier that remains true today? speaker-1 (45:55.35) Such a loaded question, especially being a woman. twelve, twelve, twelve, twelve. Although it varied for a couple years in the angsty teenage years, there was a truth of don't suffer the fools, if that makes sense. Like don't allow yourself to feel small in front of men. Backstory, I was learning karate at the time. So I remember like kicking the ass of some of these other 12-year-old kids who were mostly boys and my dad being so proud of me for that. So that definitely reinforced some things. But like don't, you know, like don't speaker-0 (46:17.654) Yeah. speaker-1 (46:31.81) Be girly or don't like make yourself look weak, like kick ass is what I learned. And my husband kicked me the way I am. So apparently he's not I mean, he's scared of me sometimes, but like not in a like abusive way, just like my god. Like, don't step for the fool. Can't do that. speaker-0 (46:36.47) Yeah if you're gonna show speaker-0 (46:44.322) Yes. speaker-0 (46:49.08) Well, I I think you'll find some maybe some peace in this. Like it's it's been very validating on the idea that we all have a little bit of masculinity as we all have a little bit of femininity. Because so far, when I was asking women these questions, my expectation was for you to talk about expectations for men, and that has not been Yel's answers. It's been I have this piece of masculinity, and this is how it shows up and how I was taught to show up with it. speaker-1 (47:11.83) Yeah, fascinating. Huh, well I'm glad I followed suit with the rest of the females on. speaker-0 (47:17.374) I'm sure someone won't, but it's been, you know, so far, so far. speaker-1 (47:20.846) I it feels a little presumptuous to say, like, here's my advice for men. I'm not a man. Right. But I could be like, Hey, here's my life. speaker-0 (47:26.446) I think it's advice. I like when I talk to female friends about it, it's they have expectations for the men around them. Not advice on how to complete those expectations. But like when I see a man, this is what I expect. Yeah. And I like that everybody's truth is internally arranged so far. It's been nice. Yeah. And I think your dad was right. Like if you're gonna no matter who you are, if you're in a masculine competitive space, show up to play. That's it. speaker-1 (47:45.646) That's pretty cool. speaker-1 (47:56.334) He raised two really strong daughters. He's married to a really strong woman. And all of and both my husband and my brother-in-law married these strong women, right? So like we also had to have partners that weren't assholes. So I think there's some connection, but like don't suffer the fool. But also like you're not attracting an asshole because you're holding your own and you're gonna be strong as a woman. And so the men we brought in are secure in their masculinity because they also know like there are times we drive as like strong women and they're okay with that. speaker-0 (47:57.166) There's other space for. speaker-1 (48:26.315) Okay. speaker-0 (48:27.278) Mm. Well, and I think for for me, a significant portion of the women that I've been closely intimate with have been violently capable. Mm-hmm. And there's a peace in that for me as a guy. Like I worry about them less in the world. And when I was younger, it made me feel more confident that if I was doing something wrong, something would let me know. speaker-1 (48:47.744) Uh-huh. Yeah. Like get you back on course or give you feedback. Mm-hmm. speaker-0 (48:52.226) Yeah, and and I think a lot of guys would do b benefit from looking for that. Like if you're a guy who doesn't know how to like I don't know how to approach women, I don't know how to do this. Find women who will tell you when you're screwing it up. You know, not call you a bad person, not toss you out, but like don't do that. speaker-1 (49:09.208) Right. Like a healthy boundary, not them being an asshole to you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. speaker-0 (49:16.878) So the next one is what's a time pursuit of your gender identity has hurt you? speaker-1 (49:25.346) Hmm. I think I took kind of going off the story we just talked about, I think I took that too heart to the point where I didn't need anyone. So actually your audience will resonate with this, right? The like stoicism, I don't need anyone, hyper independence, as I would call it. And that hurt me for a long time. Like that isolation was there. I wasn't digging anyone. People were like intimidated by me. That was the word I heard a lot from high school through my like late twenties. Like you're intimidated as fuck. I don't know how to talk to you. Like speaker-0 (49:54.54) You're a lot. I'm gonna be over here. speaker-1 (49:56.994) Yeah. And so I think that hurt me, right? Like similar to the folks listening of like if you feel isolated, like there's this loneliness of, I can't connect with anyone on an intimate level because I don't feel like I need anyone. And I remember my mom looked at me one day, she's like, Kara, if you're too strong and you make a man feel like they don't need you, they're not gonna come around. They're gonna be like, Why would you want me if you don't need me to help you with anything? And I looked at her and I like, What? You mean like open the jar of pickles? And she's like, No, no, like you'll get it someday. Like if you can't hear this right now, you'll get it later. But what she was trying to tell me is like y I was repelling the people. I was keeping them at arm's length with my hyper independence. I can do this myself. So there's like an act in vulnerability of asking for help and like being okay with that. speaker-0 (50:39.798) Yeah. Well, it's kind of funny. I'll my special forces guys run into that a lot. Cause they're just everything about their entire life has been being the most competent guy in the room. Anywhere they go. And it tends to be fairly destructive for their marriages. And so I usually catch them on their second or third marriage by the time they see me and they're out. And one of the big things that makes the transition to this is the person that's gonna stick with me is they're willing To not have to be the competent one when they're with this person, that there is safety in like, I can trust them to guide me through this. I can trust them to accept I don't know how to do this. I don't have to bluster, I don't have to charge through. And I think a lot of guys, and just people in general, but guys in particular, it's not that you need to do that with everybody. In fact, if you did, you'd be doing it really wrong. The world is not safe. That is, that is not, don't just go around and throw around your insecurities. Mm. But if the people you're closest with can't brace them for you, you're not very close. speaker-1 (51:44.62) Yeah. Isn't that like a Marilyn Monroe quote of like, You can't handle me at my worst, you don't have to serve me at my best. speaker-0 (51:52.568) I always hate that quote. speaker-1 (51:54.218) Well tell me why you hate it. 'Cause I was thinking it was like a positive of like doesn't mean we should be acting our worst, but like someone who we feel safe enough that we can show our edges and they're like, I still love you. I still speaker-0 (52:05.554) I think there's a difference between showing somebody your edges and expecting them to put up with your worst. Like it that one robs it of accountability. Like e I have been an absolute mess and hurt a lot of people I deeply care about. And the ones that stay in my life are the ones that help me be a better person by holding me accountable. speaker-1 (52:10.786) Gotcha. speaker-1 (52:26.838) You flip it. speaker-0 (52:27.97) Doesn't mean that they run away. Doesn't mean that they're like, You're out on this one mistake, but it also doesn't mean like, No, no, that's just you and I love you anyway. speaker-1 (52:35.224) Got it. Yep, it's an important distinction. speaker-0 (52:37.912) Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. Like I think yeah, it it was a client that got me mad about that the first time. 'Cause they were just like justifying all of their behaviors and like how they're not going to change them and how it's just their personhood and how everybody should just accept that. And I'm like, No that no, that's not speaker-1 (52:55.074) No. That does sound good, does it? I feel like for me it's like the attachment styles of like the anxious attachment, i.e. me, when I was younger, brought had some comfort in being like, Okay, I can have these edges and not be perfect and someone else will love me. But yeah, if we come at it from the avoidant attachment lens, the island, I don't need anyone. And I'm an asshole and you just have to handle me as an asshole, that doesn't sound right. speaker-0 (53:18.518) I hear That's always something that I like you hear the truth tellers dropping. All right. And w we get to go out on a on a high note. What is a time where pursuit of your gender empowered you? speaker-1 (53:21.698) Yeah. speaker-1 (53:34.912) Hmm. I mean, motherhood shows up in my head. Like being really proud of the body I have to birth a baby and make a baby and hold a baby. Seems really interesting to say on a podcast for men. So speaker-0 (53:49.518) Parenthood has been a consistent answer for folks with kids. speaker-1 (53:53.718) Yeah. Like I didn't actually think I wanted to be a parent. So that might be something listeners would resonate with regardless of gender. Like I was very committed to my career. It was part of that like hyper independence. I'm gonna make something of myself. And then the pandemic hit and I was like, is this it? Is this all my life is is working because I backslid into worker holism again because there was nothing else to do. Wasn't traveling, wasn't seeing people. I remember my sister, she lives in the city, she came to my door and she dropped something off and she stepped back and I was like looking at it from the balcony and I was like, This is awful. I want my family next to me. And I was like, and I want her. And I also want my own family. And so my ha my spouse was like, my God, I finally get to be a dad. Like he was so excited. He's always want to be a dad. But I was just like, What if what would have happened if the pandemic didn't hit? 'Cause like that was the turning point for me of like seeing my family that I could not touch or hug or say hello to. And they lived in the fucking same city I was in. Like it was awful. So happy note though is I became a parent. Women's bodies are phenomenal. They can do a amazing things and Lo and behold, I am a happy parent of a teenager. speaker-0 (54:56.206) Well, it sound it sounds like the that nurturing part of yourself that has been so leveraged in your professional life. There's a reason why people love referring from you to you and learning from you. But it sounds like you'd really had that walled off and the pandemic made you realize that that nurturing and I think nurturing is more of a feminine quality. It doesn't mean that there isn't men that can be nurturing. I'm one. But I really love that that frame let you get that part of yourself in other places in your life. speaker-1 (55:26.306) Yeah, thank you. Yeah. It's it's like amazing how the world or whatever universe, higher power, whatever you believe in, like shows you some things that you're like, huh, I didn't even know how happy I could be. I can't imagine what my life would be like without her now. She's such a part of it. But yeah. speaker-0 (55:41.004) Well I feel closer to you now because I think we're both like the major changes I've made in my life have become s because of exactly that kind of vibe of like, no that's bullshit. No, no, I'm mad now. Now I'm gonna go change that. speaker-1 (55:49.762) Yeah. speaker-1 (55:54.99) Talk about that motivator, right? External motivation or internal motivation of like I'm on I'm fired up now. I want to make a difference. speaker-0 (56:02.75) Anger isn't toxic. It's just misused. Well, Kara, thank you so much for coming on. I I always feel like I learn a little bit more about a topic that I already know quite a bit about every time I talk to you. It's part of why I love having you in my community. Thank you. hopefully we can have you back on at some point to talk about money in the future, as that is one of your other specialties. And I actually haven't got to hear you talk about that that much, so I'm really excited about that. speaker-1 (56:06.168) Yeah. speaker-1 (56:27.318) We really gotta take a dive in that. Yep. Financial therapy for listeners. Like that's the placeholder. Money and emotions. Let's do it. speaker-0 (56:35.543) Well Americans aren't money motivated, so it makes sense that we don't have any emotional ties to it. speaker-1 (56:39.532) Yeah. My job is secure. speaker-0 (56:42.67) Forever. All right. Well, take care and we'll see next time. That's our conversation with Kara. If something in this stuck with you, hold on to it. Name it. You don't have to do anything about it now, but don't stay silent. Silence is where we lose people. As always, we fact check to make sure we get you the best information possible. This week we've got three that are worth looking at. The first is where we cited 16.6 million people with serious thoughts of suicide in 2023. That number's a year old and it counted everyone 12 and up. speaker-1 (56:48.536) Thank you. speaker-0 (57:12.002) The current figure from 2024 is that 14.3 million adults, about one in 18. It dipped in 2023 and it climbed again in 2024. That's still an undercount because saying the words might get you hospitalized, and most people know it. The second clarification is when I said one in four men reach out for help. That's soft, and then what the data actually says is simpler. Men get mental health care at significantly lower rates than women. The gap is real, the exact fraction isn't. And the last one that's worth naming is the number on older guys. That one holds up. We lose oldest men the most. Guys over seventy-five, we lose at about forty per 100,000. The guys most likely to sit in silence are the ones we lose the most. These are population numbers. No individual statistic is gonna name what happens to you or anybody else. It's simply a way to understand what's happening in broad terms so that you can bring it into your world and do what's best. If somebody in your life has gone silent, reach out. Silence is where we lose people. And like Kara said, asking isn't gonna trip anything over, it might save a life. If it's you, Call someone. Get some help. Call the crisis line. Call a therapist. A friend. Don't sit in silence with it. That's where we lose, guys. This has been Tim with American Masculinity episode 64.