Episode Summary

Barrett Williams (00:00.162)

Almost every week I sit across from some version of the same man. Everybody seems to like him, but he almost feels entirely alone.

And increasingly taken advantage of. He's dependable, easy to work with. The guy people call when something breaks, when a shift needs covering, or when someone needs to talk at 11 o'clock at night, and he's genuinely lonely. He's spent years being agreeable and can't understand why it isn't paying off, why he keeps getting more work without more money, why people trust him with problems but rarely ask about his, why he feels useful everywhere and chosen almost nowhere. Somewhere along the way, he learned how to be useful without ever learning how to be cared for. It all comes back to a similar set of patterns, and good therapy breaks bad patterns.

Covering people pleaser, a therapist with over 10 years of experience helping guys break that pattern. I'm gonna show you how that pattern develops, what it costs at work and in friendships, and four ways to interrupt it without tripping into being an asshole. Let's get into it. Kindness is generosity with choice. People pleasing is generosity under threat. You've probably heard terms around it the nice guy problem, the pick me version of guys, and like we just said, people pleasing. The cues for these behaviors are the same. They look a little different from the outside, but it all kind of goes through the same internal process. Inside, kind

Kindness is someone's need, your capacity, and then a decision about what to do with that. So let's name the pattern and separate it between kindness and people pleasing. It all comes from the same place. You're doing things for others on a ledger. There's a fear that you're having that if you don't do the right things, you won't get your needs met, and largely aren't communicating that to people. So kindness is you see someone have a need, you take a moment and see what your capacity is, and then you make a decision as to whether you're going to engage or not. And that decision is the key.

Key point. That capacity is a key point. There's a pause there where you take a minute to figure out what it is that you have space for and that you're willing to do for the person who needs it. What people pleasing comes from is it's made from a place of fear that if I do X, I get Y. If I don't do X, I don't get Y. Where all of a sudden you're either worried about a conflict if you say no, where you have a huge fear of disappointing somebody, that you've kind of put yourself up on this pedestal that you're the guy and you need to be the guy, or no one will care for you, and you don't deserve care. Or maybe

Barrett Williams (02:05.932)

You're just worried about rejection that if you say no at the wrong time to the wrong person, they're gonna toss you out. So this pattern starts early. Like most behavioral things that we pick up, they develop when we're really young. And at some point, people with this problem looked to their caregivers for something and didn't get it. And it doesn't need to be capital T trauma, right? This doesn't always come out of abusive situations, but it's a time when a child looks to their caregivers, doesn't have what they need from them, and comes up with a simple story on how to get it. And that story for the

This is usually something like I shouldn't have a need. I can just be of service, that they matter more than me. So when the caregiver is being cared for by the child, sometimes it's if I do the right things, then I get what I need, then I get the care I'm looking for, but I can't ask for it. And sometimes it's just the idea that in a household that's kind of chaotic, you have to ground everybody else through doing the right things at the right time. Like I said, sometimes this is a big trauma. This is big hurt, that a consistent problem with the caregivers. Sometimes it's something that happens at school or with other adjudications.

Adults that are providing care, it's a little different for everybody. So don't get too twisted up in your mind about whether it's a big trauma that needs to happen for this. It doesn't need to be a big trauma. It just needs to be a pattern that worked when someone was young. It's a simple strategy that protected the ego and the safety of a kid in an unsafe world. And as a child, that strategy works. It works really well. Being the well-behaved kid, being the kid that performs, being the kid that shows up in the ways that the adults want around you.

You get what you need, you get the attention, you get care, people like you. As we grow up though, the things that people want and need from us change, and life becomes more complicated. And those simple straight line choices don't manifest in the same ways. But that little kid in us wants it to and thinks it should. This is a rule. If I do X, I get Y. And that's where things go off the rails. You see it happen with guys at work all the time. They show up for the extra work, they take on the extra project, they put in the extra hours for nothing. Their boss gets promoted, leaves them behind. They don't get a raise. They get let go because somebody else negotiated better than them. In friendships, people aren't.

There. They end up coming to you for everything. Coming to the person that's gonna give them what they need. And maybe they've even asked what you need, what you need for something. no, nothing, nothing, nothing. I don't have needs. No, no, I got you. I got you. It's no big deal. Nothing. I don't need anything. This comes from having no request, no exchange, no negotiation for what it means to show up and care for somebody. And yet it still comes off like a transaction in your mind. I did X, I should get Y. But that was never communicated in any way. There was never a conversation where anybody agreed to that, and there was never a request put out to you.

Barrett Williams (04:31.842)

For that person and by you to that person. And there was never a request from you for what you need to be able to have the capacity to do these things for the people that you care about. This ends up leading to some pretty ugly places. People pleasers tend to try to manipulate their partners because if they do the right thing, they get the thing they need. And rather than talking about it, they'll just do the right things and they'll start leveraging behavior. And that can get manipulative, it can get controlling, it can even get punishing. It gets ugly. And it's because it builds resentment. Here you are doing all these things and you're not getting what you need. And that resentment comes out.

And you lash out at the people around you. It's rare. Some people pleasers never do it, but there's the seething inside of them. And the ones that never do it, it's buried really deep and it's a deeper hurt. The ones that are blown up about it, at least it's on the surface and we can get to it and touch it because they know something's wrong. Things are going bad and they don't like how they're behaving. Here's the thing though, no one can violate an agreement that they never knew existed. Most of the time you get what you ask for. So if you're watching this, you're probably wondering if it's you. So let's start with a screen and how you can figure out if you've got a people pleasing problem. I want you to think back to the last time.

Time you were angry with somebody. And the thoughts that kind of go through your head about it, right? We all have an internal monologue, and when we're pissed, that monologue tends to go pretty fast. But at some point in yours, the equation comes out. I'm a nice guy. But I did this. Why don't I? That's where we're starting to screen from. Doesn't mean anything yet, but it means we might be on the way. It's a dashboard warning, not proof. Think of it like a check engine layer. So then I want you to run these questions through your mind about it.

What did I give? What did I expect back? Did I say my expectation? And did they agree? If the answer to the second half is no, then you're mad at somebody for something they didn't know to do. And then you're probably scared about asking for it for some reason. What you're gonna do from there to try to break the pattern a little bit is I want you to imagine having a direct request from them about what you want, having a boundary, saying no, accepting their no for the thing that you expected since you never asked for it. Name a truly one-sided relationship. If it's always you pouring into a cup and there's never any water.

coming back your way, name that. Name that you feel that way. And then I want you to take action instead of silently accumulating this list of things that they're doing to piss you off. If you felt a little queasy in your stomach when I said to go do these things, it's probably an indication that you've got the nice guy problem. That you're someone who fears and worries about conflict, that you feel like you don't deserve to ask for things and get them. And it's going to be a little hard. But now you know. And so here's the powerful part. This is a big thing when it comes to any kind of mental health pattern. Ignorance isn't bliss, but you can't fix you don't know

Barrett Williams (06:53.232)

Know what the problem is. And so a lot of times when therapy starts, what it is is figuring out what the pattern of the problem is. And then the good news is a lot of other people have had that problem and have taken steps to get better. So first is the naming of the problem and the framework that you're going to use to identify it. And that's what this is. It's no different from anything else. Disappointment contains information. So whatever is disappointing you, whatever is making you angry, that's telling you what you need to know about your situation.

And then when you trace it back and you figure out that you never told anybody what you needed or you never asked, or you kept showing up even though you asked and were told no and expected the answer to change. Kindness isn't about purchasing affection, care, loyalty, sex, or promotion. Kindness is about showing up for somebody that you have some kind of care for, some kind of obligation to. And if the terms were never stated, why would they give you the thing that you you want? Why would they think to do that for you? It's not as obvious as it seems. If the terms were never stated, it wasn't an agreement. It was a bet. So let's talk about what it's costing.

In these other relationships. What it's costing in friendships, what it's costing at work. Talk about work. The agreeable man often gets more work, but what he doesn't get is more pay or more status. And this is pretty well documented. There was a 2012 study where they analyzed four different research projects, and three of those found that less agreeable guys earned 18% more on average than very agreeable guys. And with women, that changes things up a little bit. I think it's because women are socialized not to negotiate and are socialized to be more of the nice guy thing. But for our purposes,

we're talking to guys. And I see this play out all the time. The amount of guys that come in complaining about their workplace is legion. Work matters to guys. Being a provider matters to us. So work is a big part of our life and our identities. And this is what I look for. They go in with pre-compromised salary negotiations. They aren't going to give me that. I'm not going to get it so I'm not going to ask. They underquote and overdeliver. They take on leadership roles without the status, position, or pay. And rather than advocating for themselves, they just do more.

They just figure if they do more, they'll get to the other side of it. Yeah, yeah, my boss needs me come in this weekend, but if I do this, I'll get that promotion. If I do this, he'll get off my back. These guys are always thinking that it's on them to scramble for what they want and then they'll get it. And don't be wrong, hustle goes a long way. But that's not where a salary is negotiated. And if your takeaway from this is I need to be more of an asshole, you're missing the point. It's not that you need to be an asshole. It's that negotiation needs to occur. Quality doesn't negotiate. People do. And the reason why that's important is companies will only pay as much and

Barrett Williams (09:16.068)

give you as much as they think they need to to keep you. It's baked in the system. And this isn't even something to be mad at them about. It's just what's happening. We are trading labor for status and money. That's the deal. It's up to you to negotiate for the worth of that. They're gonna keep you for as long as they can doing as much as you can. And if you're not negotiating for that, if you're not reminding them what it takes to keep you, that's on you. So that's what it looks like at work.

What's it look like in friendship? So this problem, the nice guy problem, is deep within the therapy community. A lot of us struggle with this. And I found out about it in my very first graduate school class. The professor was standing in front and he started talking to us about how this job was going to change our lives. And he said something to the effect of if you're a person that wants this job, you're probably the person in your social circles that people call late at night, that shows up for everybody else, and that prioritizes others. And that's a fine thing. But once you start

Doing it professionally, you're gonna have to start to assess what your community is doing to support you because a lot of that energy is gonna go into your work. And when you do that, you're either gonna lose a lot of your friends or you're gonna burn out. And there really isn't a choice. You're gonna have to start negotiating and demanding that the people you're pouring into pour into you. And I was really taken aback and kind of scared because I was that guy. I was the guy that answered the phone at 2 a.m. for the friend in the same crisis. Between the military, moving around for college, I had friends all over the place, and a lot of them we'd only connect once or twice.

A year by phone, and a lot of them it was when they needed me. That's how I felt like I showed up as a friend, and that's what I felt kept my friendships going. And so when I got to the end of grad school and I started doing this job, I started doing therapy, I realized I had to do something that I couldn't keep doing these things in my community the same way that I had been, because that energy is being taken up at work. If I do it at home, there's nothing left, and there's nothing left for the clients that are really depending on me. And so when these phone calls would come in, I would start to tell them no. And it was really, really hard to do. Friend would call up telling me about their problems.

Problem, it's usually the same kind of problem that they've had, right? We get stuck in patterns, everybody does. And I would say something like, Do you remember what I told you last time? Do you need help finding a therapist? Okay, do that, but I'm gonna go. And they're Whoa, whoa, whoa, don't you wanna catch up or anything? I'm like, No, man, I can't remember the last time that you called and asked me how I was. I'd love to hear from you, but not tonight. And I thought that that would be the end of all these friendships. And it was the end of some, but about half of them called me back with usually within a few days. Hey man, I'm so sorry, man. How have you been? What's been going on with you? And I was so relieved that it wasn't everyone.

Barrett Williams (11:39.856)

everybody that half of my friends were my friends, I just kind of trained them to think of me as a resource instead of a friend. Loneliness isn't always an absence of people. A lot of times it's contributed to this myth that we're handed by our fathers and grandfathers. A lot of guys grew up around men who only bonded through activity, that only bonded through service. My grandfather was like that. He was a company guy. All of his friends worked where he worked, he got the gold watch at the end, his whole community was based around that. And when he retired he lost a lot of it.

It was hard on him. My dad and his buddies, they were all trades guys. They would trade favors to do what they would do, and then they would hang out, and I don't really remember them having many deep conversations. So this idea for men about being useful to be in community is real. And I think there's something to hold on to there a little bit, right? You don't want to be a drain on everybody, you don't want to be a drain on society by any means, but it can't just be this outpouring of service that if I'm not of service, I don't belong here, if I'm not of service all the time to everybody, I don't get care. This isn't a universal claim. Different guys have different experiences of it, but I

I think it's a very American claim, and I think it's really cultural for us. So, what we've got to do is we've got to take the lesson to be useful, right? Be there for the people that you care about. Do the things that you know how to do and show up for them, but then connect. Don't do it like my dad and my grandfather, where they did all that and then didn't talk to anybody, didn't talk about their inner world, didn't talk about their life, didn't certainly make requests of people. We want to break that pattern. So here's the good news with that pattern. If you're a people pleaser, you know what people need and that you can do things for them. That's a really powerful thing. A lot of the press guys.

I work with, they're terrified because they don't think they have anything to offer. If you're a people pleaser, you know you have something to offer because you've been doing it your whole life. You show up when people need you. That's a good quality to have. Now you're just going to take that quality and take what you've learned from it to be the guy that you want to be instead of leaning so hard to that one thing that's breaking you and isolating you. The nice guy trap gets you stuck at that starting line where our dads and our grandfathers were. Start at that service for care. It provides, it's fix, it's listens, it agrees, it shows up.

And it suffers in silence. I think this was particularly true for my grandfather's generation. Those guys didn't complain about what was actually going on with them. They showed up, they grinded, and then that was enough, and that should get them everything they need. And those hidden expectations don't work anymore. It's just not the world we're in, and to be honest, I don't think it worked well for them. I've worked with a few guys at that age, and they're often pretty lonely.

Barrett Williams (14:00.13)

And they're pretty isolated, and now they're really confused as to why all their labor didn't pay out the way they thought it would. So that's the bottleneck. And where it tends to land is on our partners. When a guy is like this in his friendships, he tends to be really, really pressured on his partner because they're the only person that he talks to about his needs and his wants. And we're kind of socialized to do that. Men can only really be emotional with women that they're intimate with, according to society. And that's changing a little bit, but the older you are, the more true it is. And so what ends up happening then is all the social labor lands.

On the woman in the relationship in a heteronormative stance, where you go to them for everything. Half of guys list their primary confident as their partner, their romantic partner. Women only about 20% do. And it's because we're supposed to have friends. We're supposed to have community. One person can't be an entire community. We've got to get rid of that myth. One person isn't gonna fix all of your loneliness. You need friends. And people with friends are more attractive and better partners. And it's also important because it sets up for a pretty brittle life and it makes you even more afraid of losing.

losing that person. If all of your social support goes to this one person and you lose her, that's destructive and shattering, which means that there's a lot of fear in your relationship when you realize that that can slip. When you've got a net of support, when you've got friends, when you've got a community that you can lean on, all of a sudden you can negotiate for a better relationship because if the worst happens

And the relationship ends, you know you're okay. Not necessarily happy, not in the future that you imagined, not with the person you imagined, but okay. So let's do another quick check on your friendships, okay? Who calls when you can't fix something, organize something, or absorb what they're trying to give you? Just to kind of bullshit, hang out, laugh with you, check on you. Which friend knows what's happening in your life right now? What's happening with you? Have you asked that friend for anything lately? Have you called and requested anything? Have you called and told them you need anything? Where are you sharing your life with somebody instead of just exchanging service?

That's where your friends are. And if you don't have anywhere that that's happening, and you're in a rough spot. And it's gonna take you a while to dig out of. But I promise you, you will. I see guys do it every day. Here's where the hard correction comes in. If you're consistently around people that don't ask you how you're doing or don't want the answer to the question like the real one, that's bad. But what if they did? Because I'm guessing that some of them ask and you say you're fine, that you don't tell people that you don't take the risk to expose what's happening in your life, good, bad, and ugly. Those hidden needs can't prove that nobody shows up for you. If you're not telling people,

Barrett Williams (16:20.314)

People, if you're giving them the opportunity to show up or fail you, then that isolation is just a castle you'll build in yourself. And every time someone asks and you say you're fine, you're putting another brick in the wall. So let's talk about some tools to work on this with. My favorite from a clinical standpoint is dialectic behavior therapy. The founder of it developed out an entire tool set, and a third of them are in interpersonal effectiveness. And it's what this is all about. It takes simple things to do the hard things. And this is a wonderful set of simple things to help you out. Remember, there's a lot more tools in these.

If these don't work for you, don't take it as a failure. Take it as a learning experience. You're learning what works for you and what doesn't. And if it goes poorly enough and knees really don't get you anywhere, it gives you information to take to a helper because that's probably where you need to go. Let's start with the YouTube tutorial to see if you can do it on your own first. So the first one is I want you to buy time. When someone asks you for something, I want you to say, give me a minute. I don't care whether it's 10 minutes or 24 hours. If it's an interpersonal request, like a friend or a lover asking you for something, say let me give a

Back to you in a minute. And then I want you to actually take that time to think about what it is they're asking you. And I want you to think about what your capacity is. And then I want you to answer honestly whether it's something that you want or can do. I want you to think about if you have the capacity and the desire to do the thing. That's it. Take the time and make a decision. The reason why taking the pause is so important is if you're a people pleaser, your knee-jerk is yes. Your auto response is yes. And so you need a little time to reset. If it's at work, take 24 hours if you can. Let me get back to you tomorrow on that. And really think about

about it, look at your workload, look at all the projects you have in front of you, and then see if it's something that you can do and still do all the other things that they've asked you to do. Right? That's the first one. Take a beat. Minute, ten minutes, full day.

Whatever makes sense, what I don't want you to do is I don't want you to use this as a soft no. You're gonna get back to them. And if the answer is no, that's the next skill. You're not just gonna leave that hanging. You're actually gonna say no when it's something that's outside of your capacity or desire. And you're gonna do so proportionately. We're not talking about a big asshole push where we're like, fuck you. We're talking about, hey, I'm not gonna be able to do that. And then maybe some explanation if it seems appropriate in the environment that you're in. But no is a complete sentence. I can't make that work. I don't have capacity this week.

Barrett Williams (18:31.596)

That's it. And if it's a partial yes, make sure that they understand the limit of your yes. I can't do all of that, but I can give you this to set you up. That's the way we're gonna do this. And it's gonna be hard. You're gonna take that time to ground a little bit, that time that you took to make the decision to get ready to say no. And then you're gonna bring that no, you're not gonna apologize, and you're not gonna manage their reaction. There's gonna be this small part of you that's scrambling that thinks it doesn't get what it needs when this happens. That small part of you from when you were little that you started doing this is gonna be screaming.

Dreaming that this is gonna get you in trouble, that you're not gonna get what you need. And you're gonna take some time to kind of ground through that and sue that part of yourself and watch what happens when you start consistently saying no to things that are beyond your capacity or desire.

Okay. So take some time, say no. The next one is if it's a maybe. This one's actually done real work for me. So a lot of times I have capacity, but not much. At the end of a long clinical day, sometimes I do not have it in me to answer the phone for my friends. If it's been a heavy, heavy day, like let's say that I got three responders that come in after an event here in Colorado that was terrible. I don't really want to talk to anybody that night. And that's okay. That's me taking care of myself. That's part of my job. But let's say that a friend really needs me and they text me, hey, you got a minute. Sometimes I'll just say no.

More often what I'll do is I'll say, Hey man, it's been a really long day. How important is this? And what that does is it gives them an opportunity to tell me if this is a need or a want. Because if it's a want, they can wait. If it's a need, I can push through a bit for them. And it's going to give an opportunity for them to know what it is I'm giving them. It's not just that I'm here and I'm the guy that does that. It's they asked for something. I told them it was a lift, and then I lifted for them because I care. Honestly, four to five times when I say that, people say, don't worry about it. I'll call

him or whoever else or I'm okay, we'll talk later. You'll be surprised at how many people are so used to coming to you for everything that they're just used to it. So either no or how important is this? This is where I'm at.

Barrett Williams (20:28.33)

At work, what this looks like is a boss comes and tries to drop a last-minute project on you. You have a full load of a 50-hour week already. Instead of saying yes or no, you'll lay out what it is he's asking for and ask him what you're bumping. Hey, you've already got me doing X, Y, Z to H. If you want me to slot this in, which of these three things am I dropping? Because I can't do them all. What is how important is it and what takes priority? Instead of you just pulling a 70-hour week. Right? I want you to have the no in your pocket when you need it, if you don't have desire and you don't have capacity.

I want you to have that understanding of what it is you're giving them so they can appreciate it or not. And you can wait for that response. They know what's happening. And you can put some boundaries around your yes. Those are going to be huge if you can do them. And the last one I want you to do is I want you to make a request to somebody. If it's a friend, it needed to be small.

Okay. Not asking for somebody to like uplift their life for you, but something as simple as a phone call. If you got time to scroll, you got time to call, right? Hey man, can you talk Tuesday night? I'd love to catch up. If it's a work thing, go to a coworker and ask them for help on a project in a specific and appropriately proportionate way that if they say no, the project isn't screwed. But if they say yes, it's helpful to you. And then I want you to brace

And be okay if the answer is no. But I also want you to notice what happens when the answer's yes and how good that feels. This isn't about manipulating them. This isn't trying to come up with an ask that's going to get you something that like something else, right? Like a call might lead to this. No, it's just you want to talk to a friend. This is just you need them to do part B of a ten part process for you at work. Give it a shot. That little person inside of you that was scrambling before is still gonna be scrambling, like, we shouldn't ask. Ask. And a no doesn't have to be a huge conflict because you're asking for something small. A lot of guys when they get into this, they come

in like right before they're going to do a salary negotiation or something like that. And they want to go in there and come in hard. This is a hard pattern to break. It doesn't happen overnight. So you want to take it in proportional small bites and get your reps in, just like you would anything else you're trying to learn. So start with a pause. Give me a minute, give me five minutes, give me a day, I'll get back to you. Do you really have the capacity and desire to do this? And then make an answer. If it's no, it's no. If it's yes, it's yes. If it's I could, but you're going to get used to doing those things. And then you're going to ask people for what you want in small ways to start

Barrett Williams (22:40.878)

building up to those bigger things. Remember, as you're trying these out, if you fail at them, that's okay. These are four ways to work on this when there are dozens. There's a lot of videos on this. DBT has a lot more tools than this, but this might get you there. And if it does, great.

You're like me trying to fix my toilet watching a YouTube tutorial. Every now and then it works and I can figure it out. And that's awesome. Save me a bunch of money and thank you, YouTube. If it doesn't, I gotta call a plumber. So for you, if you try these things, it's not a failure, it's information, and it's information you're gonna bring to somebody to help you, whether it's a therapist or a coach or someone to help you break these patterns. Because clearly, if you're trying all these tools, if you're watching all these videos and you're taking swings at them, it's not getting you anywhere, you need a brace, and that's okay. Everybody does. I go to therapy, I get help. Everything I've learned how to do, I've had to learn through someone.

And sometimes it's through videos like this, sometimes it's through reading a book, but a lot of times it's by going to a professional. So don't be afraid to do it here. I promise you, if you stop making your relationships a ledger and start making them a connected request, things are gonna get better for you. And now that you know that you have this pattern, it's on you to fix it like we talked about before. Remember that no is an okay answer. Remember that performance doesn't equal care. It can be a door in, right? Showing up for people is a great way to get to know them.

But at some point, it can't be the only way you're showing up. You won't feel connected. You'll be the guy alone in a room like you are now sometimes. So get out there and take a shot. For resources, remember, we got the video for the boundaries down below if you need it. And in the meantime, if there's other problems you're having, if there's other things you want to hear me speak on, leave it in the comments or message me. We're always looking for new things to do for everybody. This is Tim Winky with American Masculinity in episode sixty one. Thanks for listening.