The American Masculinity Podcast is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and award-winning men's advocate. Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, trauma, fatherhood, leadership, and growth. Each episode offers expert insight and practical tools to help men show up differently — as partners, fathers, friends, and leaders. No yelling. No clichés. Just grounded, thoughtful masculinity for a changing world.
Episode Summary
Money shapes nearly every part of a man's life. Yet most men never learn how to talk about it without shame. Success gets measured in income. Stability is tied to numbers. Worth often gets confused with earning power. When those pressures collide with relationships, identity, and a changing economy, many men feel anxious. Some become avoidant. Others feel silently overwhelmed.
In this episode, host Timothy sits down with financial therapist and educator Khara Croswaite. They have a wide-ranging conversation on money, masculinity, and the emotional lives of men. They draw from clinical work, financial psychology, and lived experience. They explore how money works as more than just a practical tool. It also works as a deeply emotional force in modern male identity. Together, they unpack how cultural expectations shape men's financial behaviors. Expectations around providing. Expectations around succeeding. Expectations around being independent. They also explore a key question. Why do so many men struggle to feel secure no matter how much they earn?
You'll hear us break down:
- Why money is never "just numbers": Emotions shape men's financial decisions. So does family history. So does cultural pressure. These forces matter far more than logic alone.
- Masculinity and financial success: Many men link their competence and worth to income. They link it to status. They link it to visible success. That belief quietly fuels anxiety and burnout.
- Saver vs. spender dynamics: Men often fall into rigid financial roles. Those roles create conflict in relationships. Neither extreme leads to real security.
- Financial gatekeeping: This is a subtle but common pattern. Men take full control of money out of responsibility or shame. It often costs trust. It often costs closeness.
- The provider role under pressure: Economic realities are shifting. Gender roles are changing. Men are being forced to rethink what providing actually means.
- Entrepreneurship myths: Hustle culture appeals to struggling men. So do "get rich quick" stories. But there's a real psychological cost. Chasing financial freedom without support takes a toll.
- Values-based money conversations: Practical tools for identifying what truly matters. This includes green-light, yellow-light priorities, and red-light spending priorities.
- Personality, attachment, and money: Enneagram types influence how men handle money. So do attachment styles. So do family money patterns. These shape how men save, spend, avoid, or obsess.
This conversation doesn't offer financial advice. It doesn't offer quick fixes. Instead, it gives men language for experiences they've often carried alone. Pressure. Fear. Comparison. The longing for stability without losing freedom. It invites a more compassionate, honest relationship with money. One rooted in values rather than shame.
Guest Information
- Financial therapist specializing in the emotional and relational aspects of money.
- Educator, speaker, and clinical practitioner working at the intersection of mental health, financial psychology, and identity.
- Co-author of Your Enneagram and Money, exploring how personality shapes financial behavior
- Known for developing the concept of financial gatekeeping and translating complex financial emotions into accessible language
- Focus areas include men and money, couples and financial conflict, money shame, family financial trauma, and values-based decision making
- Brings clinical insight alongside lived experience as an entrepreneur, partner, and parent
Note: Khara Croswaite appears in this interview in a personal and professional capacity. The views expressed are her own and do not represent the U.S. Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or any affiliated institution.
We fact-checked these claims against a mix of classical moral/ethical thought and contemporary empirical research in social psychology, conflict de-escalation, leadership studies, and restorative practices. Below are the most important confirmations and clarifications for accuracy and nuance.
1.Budget as a "Bad Word" in Financial Therapy Due to Shame Inducement
What was said:
"The running joke for us is that budget is a bad word in financial therapy 'cause it's so shame-inducing."
Status: True.
Detail: Financial therapists often avoid or reframe the word "budget." They do this because many people see it as restrictive and shame-inducing. It can make individuals feel like failures when they can't stick to it. Instead, therapists use terms like "spending plan." This approach is compassionate and non-judgmental. It focuses on emotional well-being as well as financial habits. In turn, it reduces shame and promotes open money conversations.
Source: Klontz, B. T., & Britt, S. L. (2012). How clients’ money scripts predict their financial behaviors. Journal of Financial Planning, 25(11), 33–43. https://www.financialplanningassociation.org/article/journal/NOV12-how-clients-money-scripts-predict-their-financial-behaviors
Liscomb, M. (2021, August 19). What is money shame and how to move past it. BuzzFeed. https://www.buzzfeed.com/meganeliscomb/money-shame
Why it matters for men:
This shows how traditional financial terms can increase societal pressures on men. These pressures push men to be successful providers. Such terms can heighten shame. Using shame-free language helps build emotional resilience. It allows men to manage finances without self-criticism.
2. Social-driven Spending After Promotions.
What was said:
“So expenses don't stay low. When you get a promotion, the expenses start to climb for the social and belonging reasons."
Status: True.
Detail:
This describes a common issue called "lifestyle creep" or "lifestyle inflation." It happens when people raise their spending as their income grows. They often do this to fit in with new social circles or feel a sense of belonging. Promotions or raises can lead to upgraded lifestyles. For example, people might buy nicer homes or cars to match their peers. Social comparison and the desire for status drive this behavior. As a result, savings do not grow at the same rate. People can get stuck in a cycle of higher spending without better financial security.
Source:
Staples, A. (2025, November 18). What is lifestyle creep? CNBC. https://www.cnbc.com/select/what-is-lifestyle-inflation/
Why it matters for men:
This confirms the pressure many men face. They feel compelled to show success and provider status through visible spending. Such pressure can harm long-term goals like retirement savings. Recognizing it helps promote mindful financial habits. These habits prioritize security over social approval.
3. Masculinity and Financial Status:
What was said:
“ It is kind of masculine to be status focused and the projection of the things financially is a way to project status.”
Status: True, with important nuance.
Detail:
Recent research strongly supports this idea. On average, men are more likely than women to tie their self-worth to social standing. They often use visible, expensive purchases to signal status.
Evolutionary and anthropological studies explain this. They show benefits to male status, like dominance and prestige, in small-scale and modern societies. This suggests men have stronger drives for status. Experiments in consumer psychology confirm it. Men are especially likely to buy flashy items in situations involving mating or status. For example, they make showy purchases to attract short-term partners or signal their position.
However, these effects vary. Cultural norms, life stage, personal values, money constraints, and reference groups all influence the outcome. They determine if and how much status motives lead to visible spending.
In summary, the idea reflects a well-supported trend. But it is not absolute. Not all men always act this way.
Source:
Sundie, J. M., Kenrick, D. T., Griskevicius, V., Tybur, J. M., Vohs, K. D., & Beal, D. J. (2011). Peacocks, Porsches, and Thorstein Veblen: conspicuous consumption as a sexual signaling system. Journal of personality and social psychology, 100(4), 664–680. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0021669
von Rueden, C., Gurven, M., & Kaplan, H. (2011). Why do men seek status? Fitness payoffs to dominance and prestige. Proceedings. Biological sciences, 278(1715), 2223–2232. https://doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2010.2145
Smith, E. A. (2004). Why do good hunters have higher reproductive success?. Human Nature, 15(4), 343-364.
https://doi.org/10.1007/s12110-004-1013-9
Why it matters for men:
This matters for men because tying self-worth to status can quietly shape their choices, stress levels, and financial habits. When value comes from how they appear to others, spending can become a way to seek validation rather than meet real needs. That can lead to pressure, comparison, and long-term financial strain. Understanding this pattern helps men make more intentional decisions, separate identity from status symbols, and build confidence that is not dependent on what they can display.
4. Savers vs. “Make More” Mindset Among Men:
What was said:
“I'd say 60% of guys are the savers, but 40% of my guys are just like, I'll just make more. Let's go."
Status: Clarified.
Detail:
This is an anecdotal estimate based on the speaker’s clinical work with male clients, not a statistic that applies to all men. There is no research that supports a clear 60/40 split. What studies do show is that men vary widely in how they think about money. Some focus more on saving, often driven by security and caution, while others focus on earning more, linked to optimism and risk-taking. Overall data suggests men tend to save more than women on average, but individual choices are shaped by income, age, and personality, which explains the wide range of financial approaches seen in practice.
Source:
Pino, I. (2025, August 4). Are men or women better at saving money? Here’s what the data says. Yahoo Finance. https://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance/banking/article/men-vs-women-savings-230203385.html
Why it matters for men:
Recognizing that men have different financial mindsets, such as focusing on saving or focusing on earning, helps break rigid ideas about what success and provision should look like. It allows men to choose financial strategies that fit their values and circumstances. This balance supports both security and ambition without creating shame or pressure to conform.
5. Money as the Top Reason for Divorce
What was said:
“Money’s back to number one now, I think for divorce.”
Status: Clarified.
Detail:
According to the 2025 Voice of the Customer Survey from the Institute for Divorce Financial Analysts, money problems are an important factor in divorce but not the leading cause. National surveys cited by IDFA show that lack of commitment, infidelity, and ongoing conflict rank higher than financial issues. More than a third of divorcing couples report frequent money disagreements, and finances play a role in about 20 to 40 percent of divorces, depending on age group. This shows that money matters, but it is usually one of several major factors rather than the primary reason a marriage ends.
Source:
Institute for Divorce Financial Analysts. (2025). Why people divorce and what are the reasons for divorce?
https://institutedfa.com/leading-causes-divorce/
Why it matters for men:
For men, it's key to know that money does play a role in relationships. But marital breakups rarely stem from finances alone. Deeper issues like commitment, trust, and how couples handle conflict often matter more. Seeing this big picture helps men and couples tackle relationship challenges in a balanced way. It avoids pinning everything on financial wins or losses.
6. Entrepreneurs and ADHD
What was said:
“There was a really interesting stat in 2020 about like 73% of entrepreneurs had ADHD.”
Status: Clarified.
Detail:
Multiple peer reviewed studies show that ADHD is more common among entrepreneurs than in the general population, but not at the level of 73 percent. Most research places the rate among entrepreneurs at roughly 25 to 35 percent. For example, large surveys find that about 29 percent of entrepreneurs report ADHD or similar traits, a pattern supported by other studies on entrepreneurship and self employment. In comparison, adult ADHD in the general population is much lower, usually between 2.5 and 6 percent. This difference makes the entrepreneur rate seem high, but the evidence does not support the claim that most entrepreneurs have ADHD.
Source:
Song, P., Zha, M., Yang, Q., Zhang, Y., Li, X., & Rudan, I. (2021). The prevalence of adult attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder: A global systematic review and meta-analysis. Journal of global health, 11, 04009.
https://doi.org/10.7189/jogh.11.04009
Freeman, M. A., Staudenmaier, P. J., Zisser, M. R., & Andresen, L. A. (2019). The prevalence and co-occurrence of psychiatric conditions among entrepreneurs and their families. Small Business Economics, 53(2), 323-342.
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11187-018-0059-8
Why it matters for men:
This correction matters because exaggerated numbers can stereotype or sensationalize entrepreneurs, especially men. Knowing the accurate range shows that ADHD traits are present in a meaningful minority, not almost everyone. This helps normalize how traits like high energy, risk taking, and creative thinking can support entrepreneurship, while also acknowledging real challenges such as planning and focus. For men who see themselves in both entrepreneurship and ADHD traits, the data supports using practical tools like structure, delegation, and appropriate treatment to build on strengths without assuming the condition is universal.
7. 60% of College Graduates are Women
What was said:
“60 plus percent of college graduates are women”.
Status: True.
Detail:
In the United States, women have earned more than half of all bachelor’s degrees since the early 1980s, and that share has continued to grow. In the 2020 to 2021 academic year, women earned about 59 percent of bachelor’s degrees, and recent data shows this level has remained steady or increased slightly. When associate’s and advanced degrees are included, women’s share is even higher. This trend reflects long term changes in education, including higher enrollment and completion rates among women.
Source:
National Center for Education Statistics. (n.d.). Degrees conferred by postsecondary institutions, by level of degree and sex of student: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2031-32. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d23/tables/dt23_318.10.asp
Why it matters for men: This shows how gender roles in education and work are changing. Men may have partners who achieve more academically, and understanding this can help them navigate conversations about roles, responsibilities, and fairness in relationships. It encourages adapting to these changes without relying on outdated expectations about success or providing.
8. Gender Dynamics in Saver-Spender Pairings in Heterosexual Couples
What was said:
“There's usually a pairing where the saver is the man also, because they usually have more financial literacy than the woman in this pairing — hetero pairing.”
Status:
Partly true, requires clarification.
Detail:
Large surveys and research consistently show that men, on average, score higher than women on financial literacy tests. Especially in areas like math skills, understanding inflation, and investing. This helps explain why men often take the lead on long-term investing or saving in many heterosexual households. At the same time, there is a lot of variation depending on family, country, age, and income, and women often handle daily budgeting and household finances. This pattern reflects social and educational influences rather than an inherent difference in ability.
Source:
Hasler, A., & Lusardi, A. (2017). The gender gap in financial literacy: A global perspective. Global Financial Literacy Excellence Center, The George Washington University School of Business, 2-16.
Potrich, A. C. G., Vieira, K. M., & Kirch, G. (2018). How well do women do when it comes to financial literacy? Proposition of an indicator and analysis of gender differences. Journal of Behavioral and Experimental Finance, 17, 28-41.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jbef.2017.12.005
Why it matters for men:
This clarification prevents the observation from becoming a stereotype while still acknowledging a real dynamic that can affect power, communication, and emotional responsibility around money in relationships
9. Disclosure of Fantasies with Partners
What was said:
“60 or 70% of people don't share their full range of fantasy with their partner.”
Status: Largely true, with clarification.
Detail:
Research shows that most people share some of their sexual fantasies with their partner, but very few share all of them. Studies make a clear distinction between sharing any fantasy and sharing the full range, and complete disclosure is much less common. People often withhold fantasies they think are unrealistic, socially judged, or might upset the relationship. Estimates that around 60 to 70 percent of people do not share all their fantasies align with this research. Many still share some fantasies, but not the full set.
Source:
Lehmiller, J. (2018). Tell Me What You Want: The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Da Capo Press. https://www.amazon.com/Tell-Me-What-You-Want/dp/0738234958
Kimberley, M. L., Jones, S. A., & Elliott, J. M. (2025). A Content Analysis of Reasons for Disclosing Sexual Fantasies and Partner Responses. The Journal of Sex Research, 62(3), 421–432.
https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2024.2310085
Why it matters for men:
This matters for men because it highlights the importance of understanding intimacy and communication in relationships. Men may assume that a partner’s silence means lack of interest or desire, but in reality, most people selectively share fantasies. Recognizing this can help men approach conversations about sexual desires with curiosity and respect, reduce misunderstandings, and foster a more open and trusting connection without pressuring for full disclosure.
10. Persistent Arguments in a Long-Term Relationship
What was said:
“70% of the arguments that you have after the first year (of marriage) stay the same.”
Status: Largely true, with clarification.
Detail:
Research by John Gottman and his team shows that most conflicts in marriage are ongoing. About 69 percent of disagreements are perpetual, meaning they come from lasting differences in personality, values, needs, or lifestyle, and they tend to keep resurfacing rather than being fully resolved. While the episode simplifies this by focusing on the first year of marriage, the main point is clear: recurring arguments are normal. Successful couples are not those who eliminate these conflicts, but those who manage them well, communicate effectively, and handle emotions constructively.
Source:
Gottman, J., & Silver, N. (2015). The seven principles for making marriage work: A practical guide from the country's foremost relationship expert. Harmony.
https://www.gottman.com/product/the-seven-principles-for-making-marriage-work/
Fulwiler, M. (2026b, January 16). Managing Conflict: Solvable vs. Perpetual Problems. The Gottman Institute. https://www.gottman.com/blog/managing-conflict-solvable-vs-perpetual-problems/
Why it matters for men:
This perspective takes the pressure off of men trying to fix every recurring argument. It focuses instead on learning how to handle the same issues with maturity, patience, and emotional awareness. The goal shifts from solving every problem to nurturing and managing the relationship in a thoughtful way.
Full Citations/ Further Reading
Freeman, M. A., Staudenmaier, P. J., Zisser, M. R., & Andresen, L. A. (2019). The prevalence and co-occurrence of psychiatric conditions among entrepreneurs and their families. Small Business Economics, 53(2), 323-342.
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11187-018-0059-8
Fulwiler, M. (2026b, January 16). Managing Conflict: Solvable vs. Perpetual Problems. The Gottman Institute. https://www.gottman.com/blog/managing-conflict-solvable-vs-perpetual-problems/
Gottman, J., & Silver, N. (2015). The seven principles for making marriage work: A practical guide from the country's foremost relationship expert. Harmony.
https://www.gottman.com/product/the-seven-principles-for-making-marriage-work/
Hasler, A., & Lusardi, A. (2017). The gender gap in financial literacy: A global perspective. Global Financial Literacy Excellence Center, The George Washington University School of Business, 2-16.
Institute for Divorce Financial Analysts. (2025). Why people divorce and what are the reasons for divorce?
https://institutedfa.com/leading-causes-divorce/
Kimberley, M. L., Jones, S. A., & Elliott, J. M. (2025). A Content Analysis of Reasons for Disclosing Sexual Fantasies and Partner Responses. The Journal of Sex Research, 62(3), 421–432.
https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2024.2310085
Klontz, B. T., & Britt, S. L. (2012). How clients’ money scripts predict their financial behaviors. Journal of Financial Planning, 25(11), 33–43. https://www.financialplanningassociation.org/article/journal/NOV12-how-clients-money-scripts-predict-their-financial-behaviors
Lehmiller, J. (2018). Tell Me What You Want: The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Da Capo Press. https://www.amazon.com/Tell-Me-What-You-Want/dp/0738234958
Liscomb, M. (2021, August 19). What is money shame and how to move past it. BuzzFeed. https://www.buzzfeed.com/meganeliscomb/money-shame
National Center for Education Statistics. (n.d.). Degrees conferred by postsecondary institutions, by level of degree and sex of student: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2031-32. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d23/tables/dt23_318.10.asp
Pino, I. (2025, August 4). Are men or women better at saving money? Here’s what the data says. Yahoo Finance. https://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance/banking/article/men-vs-women-savings-230203385.html
Potrich, A. C. G., Vieira, K. M., & Kirch, G. (2018). How well do women do when it comes to financial literacy? Proposition of an indicator and analysis of gender differences. Journal of Behavioral and Experimental Finance, 17, 28-41.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jbef.2017.12.005
Smith, E. A. (2004). Why do good hunters have higher reproductive success?. Human Nature, 15(4), 343-364.
https://doi.org/10.1007/s12110-004-1013-9
Song, P., Zha, M., Yang, Q., Zhang, Y., Li, X., & Rudan, I. (2021). The prevalence of adult attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder: A global systematic review and meta-analysis. Journal of global health, 11, 04009.
https://doi.org/10.7189/jogh.11.04009
Staples, A. (2025, November 18). What is lifestyle creep? CNBC. https://www.cnbc.com/select/what-is-lifestyle-inflation/
Sundie, J. M., Kenrick, D. T., Griskevicius, V., Tybur, J. M., Vohs, K. D., & Beal, D. J. (2011). Peacocks, Porsches, and Thorstein Veblen: conspicuous consumption as a sexual signaling system. Journal of personality and social psychology, 100(4), 664–680. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0021669
von Rueden, C., Gurven, M., & Kaplan, H. (2011). Why do men seek status? Fitness payoffs to dominance and prestige. Proceedings. Biological sciences, 278(1715), 2223–2232. https://doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2010.2145
Transcript
00:00 - 00:00
Just
00:00 - 00:00
ask people
00:00 - 00:01
about what
00:01 - 00:02
comes up for them with the word credit card.
00:02 - 00:06
Today we have Khara Croswaite a financial therapist who works at the intersection of
00:06 - 00:08
money, masculinity, and mental health.
00:09 - 00:14
She helps unpack how shame, identity and cultural pressure shape the way men earn
00:14 - 00:17
spend, and define security in America.
00:17 - 00:20
Computer science majors that are graduating today don't have jobs.
00:20 - 00:21
There's no money for them.
00:21 - 00:24
So all of a sudden it makes a lot of sense for them to take a big
00:24 - 00:27
swing and a risk because they don't feel like they have much to lose.
00:27 - 00:31
There is no get rich quick scheme, but I think men and women are both susceptible
00:31 - 00:34
to that messaging, especially if they're feeling desperate with their finances of
00:34 - 00:36
like, I gotta have something shift quick,
00:36 - 00:38
which is really annoying to me.
00:40 - 00:42
Oh, I have to have a nice house because everyone I know has a nice house.
00:42 - 00:45
I have to have a nice car because all of my friends have nice cars, and as
00:45 - 00:50
people get promotions, the income and expense, they continue to climb together
00:50 - 00:52
for the social and belonging reasons.
00:52 - 00:56
You can't talk about purpose and security in America without talking about money.
00:56 - 00:59
People lost their freedom if they owe money to people back in the day.
00:59 - 01:01
But then we also have credit card numbers going up and up Oh,
01:01 - 01:02
we'll give you a higher limit.
01:02 - 01:03
Keep spending.
01:03 - 01:05
I feel like our whole job as clinicians working with men is.
01:05 - 01:08
To teach guys, you don't have to hold it together all the time, but you have
01:08 - 01:10
to hold it together most of the time.
01:10 - 01:14
Sometimes I have people just try a quick word association, like a word credit card.
01:14 - 01:15
What comes up?
01:16 - 01:18
Is it mostly negative things and thoughts?
01:18 - 01:19
What comes up for you when I say the word savings?
01:20 - 01:24
If there was one skill that guys could have that would make their life infinitely
01:24 - 01:25
better about this, what would it be?
01:25 - 01:28
It's what I call the red light green light, yellow light exercise,
01:28 - 01:30
and it's coming from values.
01:30 - 01:33
It's like, what do I value spending my money on green light list?
01:33 - 01:34
What do I wanna put my money towards?
01:34 - 01:35
Red light?
01:35 - 01:35
Absolutely not.
01:35 - 01:36
And yellow is like,
01:37 - 01:38
Hey Khara, thanks so much for coming back on.
01:38 - 01:39
I'm really excited you're here.
01:40 - 01:41
Yeah, happy to be back.
01:41 - 01:43
I'm interested to see what people think of this topic For sure.
01:43 - 01:47
Well, considering how well the, the suicide one didn't do, because like
01:47 - 01:48
we're talking about it got throttle down.
01:48 - 01:51
I think the cheerier topic of money in America right now will go way better.
01:52 - 01:53
Fingers crossed.
01:54 - 01:54
Uhhuh,
01:54 - 01:57
we did a pretty good job of it, being able to introduce you for the, the
01:57 - 02:01
kinda credibility and the research that you put together for, uh, suicidality.
02:01 - 02:05
But I don't know much about what a financial therapist is like.
02:05 - 02:07
I've seen a presentation or two of yours now.
02:08 - 02:09
And I'm excited about it.
02:09 - 02:11
Can you explain to us what that means?
02:11 - 02:15
Yeah, I mean, the running, the curiosity here is that people will describe it
02:15 - 02:19
a whole bunch of different ways, but I think the most common definition is
02:19 - 02:22
that financial therapists help people with the emotions they have with money.
02:22 - 02:27
So whether that's anger, resentment, avoidance, stress, anxiety, depression,
02:27 - 02:30
uh, so for the half of us that are mental health trained and now
02:30 - 02:33
financial therapists, it's really easy for us to sit in that with folks.
02:33 - 02:35
Like, what's your thoughts, feelings, behaviors with
02:35 - 02:37
money, and how do we make that?
02:37 - 02:38
Different, or dare I say better.
02:39 - 02:42
So it's not necessarily to help people figure out like what portfolio to
02:42 - 02:45
use or how to come up with a budget.
02:45 - 02:46
Not at all.
02:46 - 02:46
Yeah.
02:46 - 02:49
Actually, the, the running joke for us is that be, uh, budget is
02:49 - 02:53
a bad word in financial therapy 'cause it's so shame inducing.
02:53 - 02:53
So we're all about.
02:54 - 02:57
Zero shame, abundant, uh, you know, compassion.
02:58 - 02:59
Creating a safe space for people to talk about money.
02:59 - 03:02
'cause most people don't wanna talk about money and when it does come up it leads
03:02 - 03:05
to fights or anger or anything like that.
03:05 - 03:08
So there's a lot of reasons why this role needs to happen
03:08 - 03:09
where people have this service.
03:09 - 03:13
Yeah, it's, it's interesting from a clinical lens, because I remember
03:13 - 03:17
career counseling in school I was really excited about, 'cause I knew
03:17 - 03:20
I was gonna be working with guys, but nobody else was really interested.
03:20 - 03:23
I don't think the profession does a good job of acknowledging.
03:23 - 03:26
Mental health and money and its connection, especially for Americans.
03:26 - 03:27
Like we're very money driven as a culture.
03:27 - 03:28
Yeah.
03:28 - 03:30
And the data tells us all the things we need to know.
03:30 - 03:31
Like no one wants to talk about it.
03:32 - 03:35
Funny enough, as we're recording this, uh, just this week a book
03:35 - 03:38
came out about how to have money conversations in the clinical space.
03:38 - 03:40
So like there wasn't even a book that helped coach people
03:40 - 03:42
on starting the conversation.
03:42 - 03:44
I haven't read yet, it just came out.
03:44 - 03:46
But just excited to see that people are filling the gaps.
03:47 - 03:49
I just love when I get new homework every time I have somebody on.
03:50 - 03:50
It's good.
03:50 - 03:51
More to read.
03:51 - 03:51
Yep.
03:51 - 03:52
More to read, more to read.
03:53 - 03:57
Well, so within that, how long have you been doing it?
03:57 - 04:00
Yeah, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it hasn't been that long.
04:00 - 04:02
So I discovered financial therapy in the pandemic.
04:02 - 04:05
I was burning out for the second time in my career and was like, okay, I need
04:05 - 04:07
to pivot again, have something change.
04:07 - 04:10
And so in that I was doing like an entrepreneurial project.
04:10 - 04:12
I was bringing colleagues into the fold.
04:12 - 04:15
It was frankly, a reason to stay connected when we were
04:15 - 04:16
all just working in isolation.
04:16 - 04:18
So lots of fun to bring people together.
04:19 - 04:21
But somewhere in there, someone mentioned financial therapist
04:21 - 04:24
and like you maybe initially I was like, what the heck is that?
04:24 - 04:26
I have no idea what that is, but I'm curious.
04:26 - 04:29
So I brought her onto the, to the, I don't know, it was like a 20 minute
04:29 - 04:30
interview that I did with her.
04:31 - 04:33
And as I heard her describe it, like all these light bulbs went off in my
04:33 - 04:36
head of like, oh, this is the missing piece to working with therapist.
04:36 - 04:38
Oh my gosh, there's so much here to unpack.
04:38 - 04:39
I have my own work to do.
04:40 - 04:42
And so within like 24 hours, I reached back out to her and said,
04:42 - 04:44
Hey, can I work underneath you?
04:44 - 04:45
Will you mentor me?
04:45 - 04:46
Will you help me figure this out?
04:47 - 04:48
And luckily she said yes.
04:48 - 04:54
And so I started with my own work, which was really emotional for lots of reasons.
04:54 - 04:57
And then I started seeing clients under her business and eventually I
04:57 - 04:59
brought them in under my own business.
04:59 - 05:01
And so that was all 2021.
05:01 - 05:03
So really not that long as we're here in 2026.
05:04 - 05:04
But a lot's happened.
05:05 - 05:05
Well, yeah.
05:05 - 05:08
And you've been doing education now for a decade, I think, right?
05:09 - 05:09
Yes.
05:09 - 05:09
Yeah.
05:09 - 05:12
And so it makes a lot of sense that you're pretty good about, now that I've
05:12 - 05:15
got a skill, now I can bring it forward to other people and more broadly.
05:15 - 05:15
Thank you.
05:16 - 05:16
Yeah.
05:18 - 05:20
I mean, I, I like to do the same.
05:20 - 05:20
I think that's why we get along.
05:21 - 05:22
Fair.
05:22 - 05:22
Mm-hmm.
05:23 - 05:26
So, so you've been doing it for a few years.
05:26 - 05:31
Uh, the emotionality and mental health around money is unique, often
05:31 - 05:34
intense, and it certainly comes up with almost every guy I work with there.
05:34 - 05:37
There's always something with money, I feel like, as an American.
05:37 - 05:41
Uh, it's kinda like the discussion around, uh, nature art in Japan.
05:41 - 05:42
Right.
05:42 - 05:45
Either Mount Fuji is in the picture, or it's from Mount Fuji.
05:45 - 05:48
Like you can't talk about purpose and security in America
05:48 - 05:49
without talking about money.
05:49 - 05:50
Yes.
05:50 - 05:50
Yeah.
05:51 - 05:52
Everyday conversation.
05:52 - 05:53
Everyday transaction, right?
05:53 - 05:55
We have stuff with money every single day.
05:55 - 05:57
We don't live in a culture where money doesn't exist.
05:57 - 06:00
So for folks who are avoiding money, this becomes a big problem 'cause it snowballs
06:00 - 06:03
into something completely unmanageable.
06:03 - 06:03
Yeah.
06:03 - 06:05
Those guys that just don't open the mail.
06:05 - 06:06
Yeah.
06:06 - 06:06
That's one example.
06:07 - 06:07
Yeah.
06:08 - 06:13
Well, so what are kind of the three big trends you see that are a little
06:13 - 06:16
different for how men come at money than, than women or non-binary folks?
06:16 - 06:19
Yeah, I mean, I think the first one that kind of yells in my head is
06:19 - 06:22
the idea of like what success looks like and money is part of that.
06:22 - 06:25
For a lot of men of like to be successful means I have a lot of money.
06:26 - 06:29
To be successful means I've invested my money, I'm competent, I have
06:29 - 06:31
financial literacy with money.
06:31 - 06:34
And even though all of that pressure is spoken socially, I
06:34 - 06:37
think there's still plenty of people who have no financial literacy.
06:37 - 06:40
They don't have an opportunity to learn what does credit mean?
06:40 - 06:42
What are investment options?
06:42 - 06:45
Uh, obviously you can hire a professional to fill those gaps for
06:45 - 06:48
you, but so many people just are like, this feels like a foreign language.
06:48 - 06:49
It's a bunch of jargon.
06:49 - 06:50
I don't understand.
06:51 - 06:52
And so we have plenty of men.
06:52 - 06:54
I'm thinking of the young men specifically who are like, I have to
06:54 - 06:59
make a million dollars by 22 years old, but like how to do that is missing,
07:00 - 07:02
but there's this pressure I will have made it if I'm a millionaire.
07:02 - 07:02
It
07:03 - 07:08
feels like all of our kind of social cachet has moved into money
07:08 - 07:09
and the ability to project money.
07:10 - 07:14
And so, so many of the guys I work with at every age, the like spending just goes up.
07:15 - 07:18
So they make good money at 20 for a 20-year-old, make good
07:18 - 07:20
money at a as a 30-year-old, make good money as a 40-year-old.
07:20 - 07:24
But they haven't saved anything along the way because they just
07:24 - 07:25
keep expanding their lifestyle.
07:25 - 07:26
And that's called creep, right?
07:26 - 07:27
Of like, it creeps up.
07:27 - 07:31
We keep up with the Joneses, we're trying to, uh, connect
07:31 - 07:32
with others in our social class.
07:32 - 07:34
We might be like, oh, I have to have a nice house 'cause
07:34 - 07:35
everyone I know has a nice house.
07:35 - 07:38
I have to have a nice car because all of my friends have nice cars.
07:38 - 07:40
And as people get promotions.
07:40 - 07:42
It's never that they all of a sudden have more money, like you
07:42 - 07:44
just named the income and expense.
07:45 - 07:46
They continue to climb together.
07:46 - 07:48
So expenses don't stay low.
07:48 - 07:50
When you get a promotion, the expenses start to climb for the
07:50 - 07:52
social and belonging reasons
07:53 - 07:54
and then finding the balance of it.
07:54 - 07:57
Like I was just talking with somebody about this yesterday where we were talking
07:57 - 07:59
about cars and I've got a motorcycle.
07:59 - 08:02
I put most of my like, you know, vehicle ego into that.
08:02 - 08:06
So I generally don't care about what I go get my groceries in, but I remember the
08:06 - 08:09
first time I pulled up for a presentation, I was getting a thousand dollars for.
08:10 - 08:11
In a, in a beater.
08:11 - 08:14
And the way that people looked at me when they saw me pull
08:14 - 08:17
up like, oh, this matters now.
08:17 - 08:21
Like if I'm gonna go present myself as successful, I need to do something to look
08:21 - 08:24
present, like successful when I show up.
08:24 - 08:27
I think of realtors for the same reason of like, oh, you want
08:27 - 08:28
a realtor who has a nice car?
08:28 - 08:30
'cause that assumes that they're really good at selling houses and they're gonna
08:30 - 08:35
get you your dream home if they show up in a car that's less than maybe it actually.
08:36 - 08:39
It's a hit to confidence for those folks of like, can I trust you?
08:39 - 08:40
Should I work with you first?
08:40 - 08:40
Impression?
08:41 - 08:44
Well, and that lines up with kind of the idea that that it is kind
08:44 - 08:48
of masculine to be status focused and the projection of the things
08:48 - 08:50
financially is a way to project status.
08:50 - 08:51
Absolutely.
08:51 - 08:53
So I think this is like the first part of your question when it
08:53 - 08:56
comes to like, what are some things specifically with men and money.
08:56 - 08:59
Of just like, oh, I have to be successful, which means lots of money.
08:59 - 09:02
I have to have plenty to go around and, and spend it on the things
09:02 - 09:03
that other people say are valuable.
09:03 - 09:05
Maybe that's also the friction point.
09:05 - 09:07
What if I don't care about a nice car?
09:07 - 09:08
What if I don't care about owning a home?
09:08 - 09:10
Which we're seeing that shift happening right now of like.
09:11 - 09:13
Actually, it's a lot of money to be a homeowner.
09:13 - 09:14
So like, do I want that?
09:14 - 09:17
Does that feel like a sound financial decision for them right now?
09:18 - 09:20
Um, the other piece, even though I don't do couples therapy, it does
09:20 - 09:25
tends to come up even when I work with individuals, is the spender saver dynamic.
09:25 - 09:27
So what comes up for you when I say that?
09:27 - 09:28
Sense?
09:28 - 09:28
Spender saver.
09:29 - 09:29
I don't know.
09:29 - 09:30
Curious,
09:30 - 09:30
my ex-wife.
09:31 - 09:31
Yeah.
09:35 - 09:35
Okay.
09:36 - 09:40
So obviously they're almost, Hmm.
09:40 - 09:42
I don't, I'm trying to be careful here on your pod podcast just a little
09:42 - 09:45
bit because I think there's a common.
09:46 - 09:49
Pairing here, gender wise, there's usually a pairing where the saver is
09:49 - 09:53
the man also, because they usually have more financial literacy than the
09:53 - 09:55
woman in this pairing, hetero pairing.
09:55 - 09:59
And then there's the sp, the spender, which is the woman typically.
09:59 - 10:02
And so even the marketing when it comes to debt and debt repayment
10:02 - 10:03
looks completely different.
10:03 - 10:05
It's gendered for these folks.
10:05 - 10:08
So for men, as a saver, they're gonna celebrate that saying, oh, just
10:08 - 10:10
work harder, get new opportunities.
10:10 - 10:12
You're gonna be fine for the woman.
10:12 - 10:15
Nine times out of 10, they hear, stop spending your money shopping.
10:16 - 10:18
And what if that's not actually the reason they're in debt?
10:18 - 10:20
What if it's any of these other things we're tracking?
10:21 - 10:22
Uh, discrimination.
10:22 - 10:25
The fact that we get cents on the dollar as a woman to a
10:25 - 10:26
man, like there's lots there.
10:26 - 10:30
And so in a couple that can lead to a lot of friction.
10:30 - 10:33
Right of like I was raised to, to save money.
10:33 - 10:35
You were raised to spend money and have autonomy.
10:35 - 10:38
How do we come together and work our budget if we have a budget?
10:38 - 10:41
Even though I said budgets are bad, how do I work my conscious
10:41 - 10:43
spending plan to make that better?
10:43 - 10:44
How do we have agreements around it?
10:45 - 10:49
And I think that's, that's one of those dynamics that the pair people pairs are
10:49 - 10:52
always gonna kind of fall into one of the other a little bit at a minimum.
10:52 - 10:55
Like one person's gonna be a little bit more security based, one person's gonna
10:55 - 10:56
be a little bit more experience based.
10:56 - 10:58
And yeah, that comes up consistently.
10:58 - 10:59
Although I've.
11:00 - 11:04
I see it like a little bit more, like, I'd say 60% of guys are the
11:04 - 11:07
savers, but 40% of my guys are just like, I'll just make more.
11:07 - 11:07
Let's go.
11:08 - 11:08
Yeah.
11:08 - 11:09
Like challenge accepted.
11:09 - 11:09
Mm-hmm.
11:10 - 11:11
Yeah.
11:11 - 11:13
And that caps out at a certain point.
11:14 - 11:14
Yeah.
11:15 - 11:18
Like you, at some point your skillset says this is what you can make.
11:18 - 11:19
Right.
11:19 - 11:20
You hit that ceiling.
11:20 - 11:22
And so financial therapists we're slowing people down to say, where
11:22 - 11:24
are these beliefs coming from?
11:24 - 11:27
Like where, what, where in your background were you raised to
11:27 - 11:28
save money versus spend money?
11:29 - 11:31
What messages were you given from your parents, your grandparents, the
11:31 - 11:35
generations that came before them, and sometimes that's eye-opening.
11:35 - 11:36
It leads a little bit more self-compassion.
11:36 - 11:39
If I'm like, oh, I want to be a saver, but I'm struggling with that.
11:40 - 11:41
What is the disconnect?
11:41 - 11:42
Where has that been normed?
11:42 - 11:43
Yeah.
11:43 - 11:46
I think the, the culture of family and money is really powerful and
11:46 - 11:48
that ends up being a lot of work.
11:48 - 11:50
Like the the Saver guys I work with.
11:50 - 11:53
It ends up a lot of times just like having them look at where their money
11:53 - 11:55
actually is and, and before they look.
11:56 - 11:57
To tell me the number they think they need.
11:57 - 11:58
That was my own dad.
11:58 - 12:00
How much do you need to actually feel secure?
12:00 - 12:02
Like what number do you see in this account and then
12:02 - 12:03
we can like live our lives.
12:03 - 12:06
What's fun about it is, is I used to just ask them to look and then give
12:06 - 12:10
the number, but what I found is if they looked, the number was always higher.
12:10 - 12:13
Where if I get them to look at the number, like give me a number
12:13 - 12:17
and then look, they're much more likely to land in some security.
12:17 - 12:19
And it really speaks to the emotions, right?
12:19 - 12:22
Of like, oh, I, I feel a certain way when I think about this number versus a
12:22 - 12:24
number that's too low or not high enough.
12:24 - 12:26
Lots there that comes up.
12:26 - 12:27
Well, and I, I think it's always interesting, right?
12:27 - 12:31
I always feel like when we talk about these kind of, kind of polar variables
12:31 - 12:33
around saver versus spender, right?
12:33 - 12:35
Different people need to hear different things, right?
12:35 - 12:38
Spender, like the savers need to hear like, Hey, what, what's your number?
12:38 - 12:41
So you can enjoy your life, and spenders need to hear, hey, hey,
12:41 - 12:45
you wanna enjoy your life later too, not just while you can make money.
12:45 - 12:45
Yeah.
12:45 - 12:48
And so that really, Dr. Brings it back to their values of
12:48 - 12:49
like, why are we doing this?
12:49 - 12:50
Why are we working so hard to spend?
12:50 - 12:52
Why are we working so hard to save?
12:52 - 12:55
What is the underlying emotion that's driving that?
12:55 - 12:56
Even if there's like a pattern.
12:56 - 12:59
So for some of our spenders, it's like, okay, am I trying to fill a
12:59 - 13:01
hole, a gap in myself by spending?
13:01 - 13:03
Am I looking for a dopamine hit?
13:03 - 13:04
Do I like the chase of a good deal?
13:05 - 13:07
Marketing has like really leaned into that, right?
13:07 - 13:10
The financial psychology is like, yep, we know exactly how to make this feel urgent.
13:10 - 13:14
We know exactly how to get you to do the minimal clicks, click
13:14 - 13:15
to buy now, kind of thing.
13:15 - 13:17
So it's not even just on the human, it's on the.
13:18 - 13:20
The culture, the society saying, this is what we do.
13:20 - 13:22
We want you to spend, especially around the holidays,
13:23 - 13:26
I can't remember whether it was you that gave me the idea, but when I work
13:26 - 13:30
with people that are overspending, I start having them just get cash.
13:30 - 13:32
That is definitely a very common recommendation of like, can we
13:32 - 13:34
make this feel more tangible?
13:34 - 13:38
Versus a card that feels like it's not actually there, it feels like play money.
13:38 - 13:40
Well, and then it puts like a few barriers, right?
13:40 - 13:44
So the online shopping, it's two clicks, and then you don't think about it again
13:44 - 13:46
versus if it's cash go to the store.
13:47 - 13:48
You look around, you see what's in your wallet, and
13:48 - 13:50
then you spend it or you don't.
13:50 - 13:52
And some folks, that's why they don't have credit cards 'cause they're like,
13:52 - 13:55
well, credit cards, I mean, again, if you wanna unpack the emotions,
13:55 - 13:57
just ask people about what comes up for them with the word credit card.
13:57 - 14:02
And Americans tend to have a lot of like dark imagery of like, I'm in a hole.
14:02 - 14:04
I can't claw myself out of it.
14:04 - 14:05
I'm stuck.
14:05 - 14:06
It feels predatory.
14:06 - 14:08
And then we look back in time and there were debtors prisons, right?
14:08 - 14:12
So there was lots of reasons to have this somatic experience of
14:12 - 14:14
panic or dread or doom and gloom.
14:14 - 14:17
Because people actually lost their freedom if they owed
14:17 - 14:18
money to people back in the day.
14:18 - 14:20
And in some ways we still have that.
14:20 - 14:23
We're still punished for having debt, but then we also have credit card
14:23 - 14:25
numbers going up and up and up, right?
14:25 - 14:26
Of like, oh, we'll give you a higher limit.
14:26 - 14:27
Keep spending.
14:27 - 14:29
So it's just very confusing.
14:29 - 14:32
Well, I also think it's just hard too, because wages have stagnated for so long
14:33 - 14:34
and everything's getting more expensive.
14:34 - 14:36
And so like the, the data on the couples right.
14:36 - 14:39
Money's back to number one now, I think, for divorce.
14:39 - 14:40
Hmm.
14:40 - 14:41
And it's that financial, it's always in the top five.
14:41 - 14:42
Yeah.
14:42 - 14:42
Yeah.
14:43 - 14:43
Yep.
14:44 - 14:44
Wow.
14:44 - 14:45
Number one.
14:46 - 14:46
Hmm.
14:46 - 14:49
At at least I think it was, I'll double check that and we'll fact check it.
14:50 - 14:51
Yeah, just in case.
14:51 - 14:53
I mean, I believe it because there are plenty of couples
14:53 - 14:54
coming into financial therapy.
14:54 - 14:57
Again, I don't for your listeners, I don't work with couples, but naturally,
14:57 - 15:00
one person of a couple might come in and try and work through their own
15:00 - 15:04
anxiety or avoidance or financial trauma to make that work, and then
15:04 - 15:05
they go into the couples work.
15:05 - 15:08
But it takes two people to come together to talk about money.
15:08 - 15:11
So I actually like to champion my couples, therapists, colleagues who are
15:11 - 15:12
like, yep, I will work with a couple.
15:13 - 15:14
Because kudos to them.
15:14 - 15:15
There's plenty of need.
15:15 - 15:18
Well, that's the two financial advisors I tend to refer to for it.
15:18 - 15:19
They don't, they're like, they're math guys.
15:19 - 15:20
Right?
15:20 - 15:23
And they, they do that, but they also, what do you want your money to do?
15:23 - 15:23
How do you feel about it?
15:23 - 15:26
Conversation, which is kind of rare for the financial advisor guys.
15:26 - 15:26
Yeah.
15:26 - 15:28
Like the behavioral finance background.
15:28 - 15:30
And that's something else people can look for in those accountants or
15:30 - 15:32
CFPs, certified financial planners.
15:32 - 15:35
Do they have a behavioral finance course under their belt
15:35 - 15:37
or a background like my CFP.
15:38 - 15:41
He took a whole behavioral finance master's degree for fun and I was
15:41 - 15:42
like, this is why I picked you.
15:42 - 15:43
'cause he knows
15:43 - 15:43
you're
15:43 - 15:43
my nerd.
15:44 - 15:45
Yeah.
15:45 - 15:48
And he knows that if I start to get like activated about something he's saying
15:48 - 15:51
I can name it with zero shame from him of like, you know what, you're making
15:51 - 15:54
this sound like it's nuts and bolts, but I'm stuck over here, fixated on
15:54 - 15:55
the number you told me to move over.
15:55 - 15:58
I don't wanna move that amount from one account to another.
15:58 - 16:00
I wanna see a certain amount in this account and then he gets it.
16:01 - 16:01
Right.
16:01 - 16:03
But not all professionals have that background
16:03 - 16:05
because they're just like, but the math doesn't make sense.
16:05 - 16:06
The interest rate's higher over here.
16:06 - 16:06
Yeah.
16:06 - 16:09
I think the perfect story for listeners on this is, this was posted
16:09 - 16:13
on LinkedIn sometime last year, but uh, a financial advisor was saying,
16:13 - 16:15
Hey, you're a widow to a woman.
16:15 - 16:18
You're a widow and you have 60,000 in a savings account.
16:18 - 16:19
You only need 30,000.
16:20 - 16:20
Okay.
16:20 - 16:20
Okay.
16:20 - 16:21
Okay.
16:21 - 16:21
She's gonna move it.
16:21 - 16:22
She's gonna change it.
16:22 - 16:24
She's gonna put 30,000 somewhere else.
16:24 - 16:25
They get to their next meeting.
16:25 - 16:26
She hasn't done anything.
16:27 - 16:29
He starts explaining again how important it is to move the money.
16:29 - 16:31
It's just sitting there, it's doing nothing for you.
16:31 - 16:34
The other person, there was a tag team of two financial professionals.
16:34 - 16:38
The other person saw some sort of nuanced shift in how this widow was
16:38 - 16:42
presenting, and he slowed his colleague down and he said, what is it about that
16:42 - 16:44
60,000 that feels important to you?
16:44 - 16:46
And she said, this is what my husband said we had to have in
16:46 - 16:50
our account at all times, just in case, just for case of emergency.
16:51 - 16:53
And he's like, this is why we missed this.
16:53 - 16:56
We missed the emotional side of there's something that this money represents.
16:57 - 17:01
She hasn't made progress on her financial goals because we didn't slow it down.
17:02 - 17:03
We didn't look at the emotional side of it.
17:04 - 17:06
And then they were able to have a really good conversation about what was gonna
17:06 - 17:10
make her feel safe and still feel like she was doing right by her husband while
17:10 - 17:13
being a widow with funds that needed to be moved around for lots of reasons.
17:14 - 17:17
But that's just a beautiful example of people going, well, it's just numbers.
17:17 - 17:18
We're just talking numbers over.
17:18 - 17:22
My head didn't even think about the fact that this was emotional until they asked.
17:22 - 17:23
What's so significant about that?
17:23 - 17:27
I think that kind of ties back into that thing about the younger guys
17:27 - 17:30
and guys in general having a number that they think they need to have.
17:30 - 17:35
And the younger, the guy I find the more unreasonable the number is.
17:35 - 17:38
Like you were saying, like I need a million millionaire at 23.
17:38 - 17:42
Like, okay, so you want to be in the top zero odd 1%.
17:43 - 17:47
Of humanity before your brain's fully developed
17:47 - 17:49
and you're like, let's just reality check this a little bit.
17:50 - 17:52
But I also remember, uh, like my generation.
17:52 - 17:55
Wanted 50,000 a year was like a good number.
17:55 - 17:57
And now it's like you can't even live off that in certain
17:57 - 17:59
states or cities specifically.
18:00 - 18:04
And then I'm an elder millennial, so like there are millennials making
18:04 - 18:06
300,000 a year, 500,000 a year.
18:06 - 18:06
It's awesome.
18:06 - 18:06
Great.
18:06 - 18:07
Good for you.
18:07 - 18:09
But this youngest generation, I'm a professor too.
18:09 - 18:11
I asked them, how much do you wanna make in our industry?
18:11 - 18:14
And they're like, oh, you know, I wanna make 200,000.
18:14 - 18:16
I'm like, where'd this number come from?
18:16 - 18:19
So some of it does feel like it's just rooted in.
18:20 - 18:23
And this isn't meant to be flippant, but like hopes and dreams, but also they're
18:23 - 18:25
consuming something online, right?
18:25 - 18:29
So we saw a lot of this shifting in the pandemic of like, go have properties, make
18:29 - 18:31
millions of dollars with vending machines.
18:31 - 18:34
Like there was all this stuff on my social media specifically because
18:34 - 18:37
it was financially focused and it's not the path for everyone.
18:38 - 18:38
No.
18:38 - 18:41
It goes back to that entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial mindset being so
18:41 - 18:45
forced it guys, and I don't think most people should be an entrepreneur.
18:46 - 18:47
Most people want the security of a job.
18:47 - 18:49
They wanna roll, they want a paycheck.
18:49 - 18:53
To be an entrepreneur is like its own thing That I don't think is
18:53 - 18:56
acknowledged enough as a rare quality.
18:56 - 18:56
Yeah.
18:56 - 18:57
And how hard it is.
18:57 - 19:00
24 7. You left a nine to five job to work 24 7.
19:00 - 19:03
And so within that is that another theme that you tend to see in
19:03 - 19:04
the guys that you work with?
19:04 - 19:08
Is that entrepreneurial like push for those guys that don't have that.
19:09 - 19:10
Natural drive for it?
19:10 - 19:10
Oh yeah.
19:10 - 19:14
I mean, we're, we're selling snake oil in some ways of like, let's sell
19:14 - 19:15
you all the things you wanna hear.
19:15 - 19:16
I don't wanna have to work for anyone else.
19:16 - 19:17
I wanna set my own hours.
19:18 - 19:21
I wanna take lots of time off if I wanna take time off, which let's be real.
19:21 - 19:22
Once you're an entrepreneur, that's hard to do.
19:22 - 19:24
'cause like this is your livelihood.
19:24 - 19:25
You don't get PTO usually.
19:25 - 19:26
So I think that that is part, so personally, part of personally
19:26 - 19:27
IT tag right now, Kara,
19:28 - 19:32
well, I'm an entrepreneur too, so I also am like, Ooh, I feel this in my shoulders.
19:32 - 19:33
Like, ooh, okay.
19:34 - 19:37
But like, yeah, I think we sell all the great qualities, but we don't
19:37 - 19:39
talk enough about what it costs.
19:39 - 19:41
And you and I were talking about this before we started to record, like
19:41 - 19:44
what does it cost to hustle this way?
19:44 - 19:47
To be an entrepreneur, to be successful, to have projects that.
19:47 - 19:50
Are successful versus they fall apart or they fail.
19:50 - 19:55
And there was a really interesting stat in 2020 about like 73% of entrepreneurs
19:55 - 20:01
had a DHD, and I was like, that tracks on some level that tracks, yeah.
20:01 - 20:04
Of like the, I can go towards the next thing, I can move
20:04 - 20:05
towards the next opportunity.
20:05 - 20:07
I actually feel like that's a protection mechanism too,
20:07 - 20:08
because so many times we fail.
20:09 - 20:10
I fail a lot.
20:10 - 20:12
Other entrepreneurs fail a lot and it's like if we sit in
20:12 - 20:13
that too long, that's painful.
20:13 - 20:15
So let's just go towards the next opportunity.
20:16 - 20:17
And entrepreneurship is definitely a fit for that.
20:18 - 20:20
And I think that's kind of the, the, the mano sphere, right?
20:20 - 20:24
So like that word's always kinda weird 'cause it just is male focused
20:24 - 20:28
content, but it's this push for that kind of American individualism,
20:28 - 20:30
American freedom as masculinity.
20:31 - 20:34
And it just leaves a lot of guys out in the cold with it.
20:34 - 20:38
Uh, because if you're not that kind of energetic, if you're not that
20:38 - 20:40
like a little bit manic, right?
20:41 - 20:42
Entrepreneurialship isn't for you.
20:43 - 20:47
And now, like I keep seeing it in the financial stuff that comes up is this
20:47 - 20:51
like idea of there's working for yourself and there's being an entrepreneur
20:51 - 20:52
and there are two different things.
20:52 - 20:54
And I think working for yourself can be pretty good.
20:54 - 20:55
Like that's what I do.
20:56 - 20:58
But the entrepreneur is like, how do I make money passively?
20:59 - 21:01
And that's a, that's a pretty big scramble.
21:01 - 21:01
Years.
21:02 - 21:03
Like it's great once, once it happens.
21:03 - 21:06
Yeah, it's great once it happens, but like, you know, do you have
21:06 - 21:09
five or 10 years to, to build up whatever it's gonna be to do that?
21:09 - 21:12
And then at what are the costs of your mental health, your sleep, all
21:12 - 21:13
the things that are, you know, risk.
21:14 - 21:17
Because of that, I'm having a light bulb moment of like, oh, this is
21:17 - 21:20
why people have moved more back to financial industry because like, they
21:20 - 21:23
actually have the longevity of like, we can just invest something and
21:23 - 21:25
let it compound interest for years.
21:25 - 21:26
We don't have to do anything.
21:26 - 21:26
No hustle.
21:26 - 21:27
Just like let it coast.
21:28 - 21:28
Huh?
21:29 - 21:30
Versus entrepreneurship.
21:30 - 21:30
Yeah.
21:30 - 21:31
Take big swings and risk.
21:31 - 21:32
And hope one of 'em lands.
21:33 - 21:33
Yeah.
21:33 - 21:36
So hyper independence is a word that's coming up for our conversation, and I
21:36 - 21:40
think that leads to what I had in my head as the third piece for men and
21:40 - 21:45
money, um, which is a term I coined back in 2021, financial gatekeeping.
21:46 - 21:47
Financial gatekeeping.
21:47 - 21:53
So not financial abuse, but this idea from the place of I am responsible for money.
21:53 - 21:56
There are lots of women and men who pair up together and women is like,
21:56 - 21:57
I don't have financial literacy.
21:57 - 21:59
I'm quote unquote stupid with money.
22:00 - 22:01
I'm gonna pair with someone who knows money.
22:02 - 22:06
So ironically, I work a lot of therapists, women therapists who pair up with like
22:06 - 22:12
male engineers, male computer scientists, male accountants, they all in the woman's
22:12 - 22:14
eyes have better understanding of money.
22:15 - 22:17
And so from that, are we actually putting pressure on these
22:17 - 22:19
men to financially gate keep?
22:19 - 22:22
As in, I ha don't feel like I can trust you, wife, partner,
22:23 - 22:24
spouse, whoever you are.
22:24 - 22:28
So I'm gonna take the load, I'm gonna take the financial load for the whole family.
22:28 - 22:29
For the whole household.
22:29 - 22:32
I have to either be the breadwinner, I have to manage
22:32 - 22:33
the budget for the household.
22:33 - 22:36
I've gotta tell us what we spend our money on and what we don't.
22:36 - 22:39
And as you can imagine, that's not great for the romantic
22:39 - 22:40
relationship specifically.
22:40 - 22:44
It's not fair to either partner for this financial gatekeeping to happen.
22:44 - 22:50
We had, uh, thereon and she talked about leadership within a couple and how it's,
22:50 - 22:55
it's perfectly great when a couple has roles that one person is leadership in.
22:55 - 22:59
But that doesn't mean that you don't get to consult with the other, and
22:59 - 23:02
it doesn't mean that you don't get to talk about the emotional impact.
23:02 - 23:02
Right.
23:03 - 23:06
And that's usually what I see with those guys that are like the managers, right?
23:06 - 23:10
The ones that want to do that gatekeeping, it's because they are uncomfortable and
23:10 - 23:13
unable to have the emotional conversation around the money with their partner.
23:15 - 23:19
And the other thing that I see a lot of is, while that I think it is masculine to
23:19 - 23:21
to be the person that's a provider, right?
23:21 - 23:25
The provider role has been within us culturally and just strategically forever.
23:26 - 23:29
The guys that don't naturally have it feel a pressure to try.
23:30 - 23:33
And feel this pressure to be blustery about it.
23:33 - 23:38
Like, I can do this and sell themselves to their partner as somebody who can
23:38 - 23:40
manage money well and then don't.
23:40 - 23:43
And that gatekeeping becomes very Shay, right?
23:43 - 23:45
Like, don't look at how tight things are.
23:45 - 23:48
I'll make more, comes up a lot for the guys I work with
23:48 - 23:48
for sure.
23:48 - 23:52
And I'm thinking of some of the female clients I've served that didn't know what
23:52 - 23:53
was going on at all with the finances.
23:53 - 23:54
They're completely in the dark.
23:55 - 23:58
Their partner, spouse were saying, Hey, I've got it handled.
23:58 - 23:59
And maybe they didn't.
23:59 - 24:01
Maybe they're like, there were secret debts, maybe there
24:01 - 24:03
was financial infidelity.
24:03 - 24:05
Maybe there was shame of like, I should have this figured out.
24:05 - 24:07
I'm the provider like you just named.
24:07 - 24:07
I'm the provider.
24:07 - 24:09
I should be able to do this for our family.
24:09 - 24:11
But what if they still have gaps in their education?
24:12 - 24:16
What if they were told, take a risk and throw your money into Bitcoin or
24:16 - 24:18
something and then it didn't work out.
24:18 - 24:21
Like, not to throw shade, but I am gonna throw shade at Bitcoin on your podcast.
24:22 - 24:26
So it's like, you know, like there is no get rich quick scheme, but I think men
24:26 - 24:29
and women are both susceptible to that messaging, especially if they're feeling.
24:29 - 24:33
Uh, completely uncomfortable or even desperate with their finances of like, I
24:33 - 24:35
gotta have something shift quick, fast.
24:35 - 24:38
I think a lot of that pressure comes from systemic problems too.
24:38 - 24:41
Like the, the big thing that I, I see a lot when we talk about risk taking
24:41 - 24:47
and money is men are more likely to be seen as the problem for themselves
24:47 - 24:49
without seeing a system of pressure.
24:50 - 24:53
And so things like Robinhood, the online gambling Yep.
24:53 - 24:55
Stagnating wages, increased cost.
24:56 - 24:57
These young guys, they.
24:57 - 25:01
They've been told that that's what they need to be, and they have their skillset
25:01 - 25:04
and then that skillset keeps changing.
25:04 - 25:07
Like computer science majors that are graduating today don't have jobs.
25:07 - 25:07
Right.
25:07 - 25:08
There's no money for them.
25:09 - 25:12
And so all of a sudden it makes a lot of sense for them to take a big
25:12 - 25:15
swing and a risk because they don't feel like they have much to lose.
25:16 - 25:18
But then that risk keeps dropping into the hole.
25:18 - 25:19
Yeah.
25:19 - 25:21
And then we have like this pattern or the hole we can't climb out of.
25:22 - 25:22
Absolutely.
25:23 - 25:26
Yeah, so I, I'm thinking of also the other side of this.
25:26 - 25:29
I had a client once who was a man, and he was like, Hey, I
25:29 - 25:30
wanna be a stay at home parent.
25:31 - 25:32
Like that is what I want to do with my life.
25:33 - 25:36
And he felt really certain and grounded in that until he had all this
25:36 - 25:37
pushback from the people in his life.
25:37 - 25:37
Are you sure?
25:37 - 25:38
Are you sure?
25:38 - 25:40
You're sure you should be providing for your family?
25:40 - 25:41
Should, should, should.
25:41 - 25:43
And all of a sudden it was like, can I do both?
25:43 - 25:45
Can I somehow become.
25:45 - 25:48
You know, an entrepreneur and stay at home and be present with my kids.
25:48 - 25:52
And I remember I gave him the Barbie movie as homework and he was
25:52 - 25:53
like, all right, fine, whatever.
25:54 - 25:58
Had a kick ass wife, and she was great and he loved what she was doing.
25:58 - 25:59
And you could see there was a lot of admiration there.
26:00 - 26:02
And he came back and he's like, shit, is this what women
26:02 - 26:03
think and feel all the time?
26:03 - 26:04
And I was like, mm-hmm.
26:05 - 26:05
Like, how do you do it all?
26:06 - 26:10
How do you make good money and be there for your family and be a good parent?
26:10 - 26:11
All the things.
26:11 - 26:13
And so I don't know why that's popping up as we're talking, but just the
26:13 - 26:17
other side of that, of like not just a provider in finances, private provider
26:17 - 26:19
at home, if that's a role they want.
26:19 - 26:22
Yeah, like, I like how Scott Galloway puts it, he's like, sometimes being
26:22 - 26:24
the provider is understanding your partner is better at that money thing
26:24 - 26:26
than you and back them up a little bit.
26:26 - 26:30
I, I like that with the younger guys, that it's more often a consideration.
26:30 - 26:33
Like I feel like, I don't feel like what I see consistently is.
26:34 - 26:40
For guys over 35 and 40, the idea that you could do something other than provide is
26:40 - 26:42
not something that you've ever considered.
26:42 - 26:47
So for guys in their forties that are married, there wasn't a conversation with
26:47 - 26:50
their spouse about who was gonna stay home if somebody was going to stay home.
26:50 - 26:53
The understanding was, is she choosing to stay home or not?
26:54 - 26:56
Not which of us will.
26:56 - 27:00
And I think for younger guys that are smart and kind of watching what's happened
27:00 - 27:03
to the older guys, it's a conversation.
27:04 - 27:08
And that's hard because now all of a sudden these guys, rather than dealing
27:08 - 27:11
with the pain of this is all I can be and I don't have a choice, they're falling
27:11 - 27:14
into the trap that women have been stuck in for 30 years of like, well, I guess
27:14 - 27:15
I have to do everything really amazing.
27:16 - 27:16
Yeah.
27:16 - 27:17
Good luck with that.
27:17 - 27:17
Good, good luck.
27:17 - 27:18
Right?
27:20 - 27:23
Yeah, no, I, I completely agree and I'm also feeling a lot of gratitude that I'm
27:23 - 27:27
married to a husband who, in his most playful was like, I would love to stay
27:27 - 27:28
at home and, and play with the kids.
27:28 - 27:30
Now, this was before we had a child.
27:30 - 27:32
We have a 4-year-old now, and I, I don't know if that would still be true.
27:33 - 27:35
He loves her a lot and he loves being a good, he's a good dad,
27:35 - 27:37
but just the idea of like.
27:37 - 27:39
Is this gonna be a conversation or not?
27:39 - 27:41
Like I remember saying, we are not having children if you're
27:41 - 27:42
not actively a part of this.
27:42 - 27:45
Like I'm not gonna be a single parent by behavior.
27:45 - 27:47
I'm not gonna be, you know, a single parent in the background
27:47 - 27:49
just because we're married and you're off working all the time.
27:49 - 27:51
Like I was really adamant about that.
27:52 - 27:53
It's just feeling gratitude.
27:53 - 27:55
We were able to have that hard conversation and it sounds like the
27:55 - 27:59
youngest generation might be having that too, of like, it's not assuming one
27:59 - 28:00
of us staying home, it's who and how.
28:01 - 28:02
How's it gonna look?
28:02 - 28:04
Well, and I think it's also just forced with the younger guys, right?
28:04 - 28:08
So, so young women are out scaling men rather rapidly.
28:08 - 28:11
And so if, you know, what is it?
28:11 - 28:14
The, the tall, the tall woman problem where like, and we don't,
28:14 - 28:16
we don't wanna curtail or cut anybody off at the knees, right?
28:16 - 28:19
We want everybody to have the expanse to grow and move within the systems.
28:20 - 28:24
But when 60 plus percent of college graduates are women.
28:24 - 28:26
Half of those gals have to figure out how to date a guy
28:26 - 28:28
who's not as successful as them.
28:28 - 28:32
And coming up with some acceptance around what that role looks like, how to have
28:32 - 28:34
those conversations, how does that feel?
28:35 - 28:38
And then the shame that the older men and women are gonna put on that
28:38 - 28:41
dynamic, I think is the other thing that doesn't get talked about enough.
28:41 - 28:41
Yeah.
28:41 - 28:44
Making them feel emasculated when maybe they're like completely content
28:44 - 28:48
and everything is going splendidly except for the pressure on the outside.
28:48 - 28:51
Like the only guys I, I see that do it really well.
28:52 - 28:54
Doing the stay at Dome dad thing, or like veterans, they're like, yeah,
28:54 - 28:56
my masculinity like, yeah, okay.
28:56 - 28:57
I've been shot at, go fix my toilet.
28:57 - 29:00
I don't care what you think about me changing a diaper.
29:01 - 29:01
Yeah.
29:01 - 29:05
Um, but for the rest of the guys, they don't have that, that masculine security.
29:06 - 29:06
Hmm.
29:06 - 29:10
And it just, it's hard to maintain when the world is telling you you're bad.
29:11 - 29:14
When you're a guy that shows up to be in a classroom and everybody looks at
29:14 - 29:17
you like you're a pedophile because you're in a second grade class.
29:18 - 29:18
Like it's, it's.
29:19 - 29:24
Our society is not moving rapidly towards allowing guys to have the variation
29:24 - 29:25
of choice that we want them to have.
29:26 - 29:26
Yeah.
29:26 - 29:26
That feels heavy.
29:27 - 29:27
Mm-hmm.
29:29 - 29:33
Well, so we've got the provider role, hyper independence
29:33 - 29:35
versus, and gatekeeping.
29:35 - 29:36
And then what?
29:36 - 29:38
I feel like I got a little lost in the conversation.
29:38 - 29:40
Oh, spender and saver.
29:40 - 29:41
We, we on that spend saver.
29:41 - 29:41
That's right.
29:41 - 29:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:42 - 29:42
There we go.
29:42 - 29:45
That's just some roles for, for men to consider and just
29:45 - 29:46
putting language to things.
29:46 - 29:49
I think that's been my role in financial therapy so far is
29:49 - 29:52
just giving people language for experiences and saying, does this fit?
29:53 - 29:53
Does this resonate?
29:53 - 29:55
Is this part of your experience?
29:55 - 29:59
Uh, to know that financial gatekeeping was like this middle gray area between
29:59 - 30:02
the horrible financial abuse none of us want to experience and being
30:02 - 30:03
completely financially healthy.
30:03 - 30:06
There was like this gap, right, of like what is in between.
30:06 - 30:08
And some of it wasn't malicious, right?
30:08 - 30:11
It wasn't manipulative, it was just, hey, I was told by my partner that
30:11 - 30:14
I'm the smartest one with money of us, and so I'm gonna handle it.
30:14 - 30:16
But what if that breeds resentment?
30:16 - 30:19
Or what if I make a huge mistake and now it feels like a lot of shame?
30:19 - 30:21
And so I think that's why I wanted to bring it on here of like, Hmm,
30:22 - 30:23
financial gatekeeping is new, but.
30:23 - 30:26
The underlying behavior behind it isn't.
30:26 - 30:28
We just didn't have language for it.
30:28 - 30:30
It reminds me like I, I joked about my ex-wife, and it's not because
30:30 - 30:32
she was a spender or a saver.
30:32 - 30:37
It was because we kind of tr oscillated those roles, but we never figured
30:37 - 30:40
out how to talk about money in an effective way where at the end of the
30:40 - 30:41
conversation, we're both on the same page.
30:42 - 30:46
Like our emotional responses to money and math was very different.
30:46 - 30:48
Like, she's better at math than me.
30:48 - 30:50
She's a, she's an it, she's a computer programmer.
30:51 - 30:55
But the emotionality behind the money was really complex and we never, like,
30:55 - 31:00
towards the end that was our problem, is that we couldn't figure out kind
31:00 - 31:02
of who was taking a role in one of the other and get on the same page.
31:03 - 31:04
It's hard.
31:04 - 31:05
Yeah, absolutely.
31:05 - 31:07
Like it's never, I mean, for most people, it's not gonna be smooth
31:07 - 31:09
sailing always or continuously.
31:09 - 31:10
It's gonna have its bumps.
31:11 - 31:13
And so sometimes I have people just try on like, okay, let's
31:13 - 31:15
try a quick word association.
31:15 - 31:16
What comes up for you?
31:16 - 31:18
So I can imagine listeners could do this with a partner or spouse or just
31:18 - 31:22
on their own of, like I mentioned earlier, the word credit card.
31:22 - 31:23
What comes up?
31:23 - 31:25
Is it mostly negative things and and thoughts?
31:25 - 31:26
Is it like, oh hell no.
31:27 - 31:29
Is it somatic?
31:29 - 31:32
It's in my neck or my jaw, or it's like in my fist, like whatever.
31:32 - 31:34
But like just a couple different words.
31:34 - 31:37
So I usually, almost every client I work with, I do this word association with,
31:37 - 31:38
and so I usually start with savings.
31:39 - 31:41
What comes up for you when I say the word savings?
31:42 - 31:44
And as you can imagine, I've heard the whole gamut of it.
31:45 - 31:48
I've heard savings of security, and I feel like I can exhale and everything is good.
31:49 - 31:51
And then I've heard from people, I don't ever have enough, all I feel ashamed.
31:51 - 31:53
I don't even have savings.
31:53 - 31:55
Zero, zip, zilch not there.
31:55 - 31:59
And so there's a lot of spaciousness just to get to know people's values and their
31:59 - 32:01
emotions with just like four little words.
32:01 - 32:04
So, savings, credit card debt, and wealth are the four I
32:04 - 32:06
usually have people try first.
32:06 - 32:08
And Whoa, there's a lot there.
32:08 - 32:10
Well, so that's a fun, like, I think that'll be a fun exercise
32:10 - 32:13
for guys to do and ideally do it with their partners, right?
32:13 - 32:17
Like the, it, it kind of goes into naming and sharing your values with your partner
32:18 - 32:19
to see how they support each other.
32:20 - 32:25
If there was another skill that you wish there just generally had, right?
32:25 - 32:27
Like there's, there's a lot of really good information out
32:27 - 32:29
there around financial literacy.
32:29 - 32:31
There's a lot of people doing good work on that.
32:31 - 32:35
But part of why I wanted to have you on was there's not a lot of people talking
32:35 - 32:37
about the emotional skill around money.
32:37 - 32:40
Like if there was one skill that guys could have that would make
32:40 - 32:43
their life infinitely better about this, what would it be?
32:43 - 32:47
I think the one that I wish I had had before I got married and or partnered with
32:47 - 32:52
someone seriously is what I call the red light, green light, yellow light exercise.
32:52 - 32:53
And it's coming from values.
32:53 - 32:56
It's like, what do I value spending my money on green light list?
32:56 - 32:57
What do I wanna put my money towards?
32:58 - 32:59
Red light, absolutely not.
33:00 - 33:01
This is never valuable to me.
33:01 - 33:02
This is actually gonna piss me off.
33:02 - 33:04
And yellow is like, we gotta talk about it.
33:04 - 33:08
So some examples that might fit in these categories, depending on the person in
33:08 - 33:11
the green light list, you might have someone say, yeah, I wanna shop for
33:11 - 33:14
designer handbags, or, I love experiences.
33:14 - 33:16
I wanna put all our money towards a, a solid vacation at
33:16 - 33:17
least a couple times a year.
33:17 - 33:21
But you can imagine in a partnership, if people have those two different
33:21 - 33:24
things on their green light list, what is the compromise there of like,
33:24 - 33:27
I wanna spend it on things versus I wanna spend it on experiences.
33:27 - 33:29
Both have value, like there's gonna be some friction.
33:30 - 33:33
And so I wish someone had encouraged me to just like own my truth of like,
33:33 - 33:35
this is what I wanna spend my money on.
33:35 - 33:35
Green light.
33:35 - 33:36
Hell yeah, let's go.
33:36 - 33:37
No conversation needed.
33:37 - 33:39
These are always gonna be a yes.
33:39 - 33:42
And I wish someone had said, own your truth about what you don't
33:42 - 33:44
wanna spend your money on because.
33:44 - 33:45
We're stereotyping people.
33:45 - 33:49
So as a woman, I don't wanna spend my money on designer handbags and never have.
33:49 - 33:51
And yet, that's the common thing.
33:51 - 33:51
That's not your vibe.
33:51 - 33:51
Common thing.
33:52 - 33:52
Yeah.
33:52 - 33:55
And so it kind of, as I, as you're hearing it kind of pisses me off that
33:55 - 33:57
people assume this is what it is.
33:57 - 33:59
But like on my red light list, it would be that kind of stuff.
33:59 - 34:02
Like, I don't wanna spend my money on subscriptions to Netflix.
34:02 - 34:03
No offense folks.
34:03 - 34:05
I don't wanna spend it on handbags, like, own our truth.
34:05 - 34:06
What's red, what's green?
34:06 - 34:08
And then the yellow list really gives people a chance
34:08 - 34:10
to say, I don't really know.
34:10 - 34:11
This might be case by case.
34:11 - 34:13
Let's have a conversation.
34:13 - 34:16
And I wish as my husband and I had gotten together, someone
34:16 - 34:17
had empowered us to do that.
34:17 - 34:20
It probably would've prevented some of the fights that naturally happen when it's
34:20 - 34:22
like, Hey, we wanna take a VA vacation.
34:22 - 34:23
How much should we spend?
34:23 - 34:25
Do you wanna eat at this restaurant?
34:25 - 34:26
That's three star restaurant.
34:27 - 34:30
Do you want to upgrade to first class on an airplane?
34:30 - 34:33
Like whatever it is, it kind of creates some.
34:34 - 34:36
Preparation versus reaction.
34:36 - 34:39
Well, and I think it, it goes back into like, uh, mark Manson was talking
34:39 - 34:43
about picking your partner and the kind of gottman research on like
34:43 - 34:46
70% of the arguments that you have after the first year stay the same.
34:46 - 34:47
Oh gosh.
34:48 - 34:49
I haven't heard that before, but, okay.
34:49 - 34:52
It's because different, it's, uh, in moments like this, it's the
34:52 - 34:55
what, what are your green lights and what are their red lights?
34:55 - 34:56
And when they don't overlap.
34:56 - 34:59
That's gonna be a consistent argument in your marriage.
34:59 - 35:03
And like, I like how he put it of like, okay, so you're gonna
35:03 - 35:05
have these things and you need to look for them and find them.
35:06 - 35:09
And then you need to look at all the ways that they improve your life, all the ways
35:09 - 35:12
that they make you happy, all the ways that you partner well, and is it worth
35:12 - 35:16
being 30% unhappy, forgiving them the things they need that you don't like.
35:17 - 35:19
And are you comfortable accepting 70%?
35:20 - 35:22
Of your happiness for the things that they can't provide to you.
35:23 - 35:28
And I, I don't think enough of our colleagues that are doing couples therapy
35:29 - 35:32
are literate enough around talking about these things around money, which
35:32 - 35:38
is really annoying to me considering that it's like in the top five for
35:38 - 35:40
as long as we've been measuring it.
35:40 - 35:44
Yeah, I mean, it's actually alarming that we don't have it as part of grad school
35:44 - 35:46
or training or whatever that looks like.
35:46 - 35:49
Um, I know I gave you homework to read a book that just came out and we'll
35:49 - 35:50
see if that fills the gap or not.
35:50 - 35:52
I mean, I don't think one book's gonna cut it.
35:52 - 35:53
Let's be real.
35:53 - 35:55
But I would love to see it in every grad program when it comes
35:55 - 35:56
to mental health therapists.
35:56 - 35:58
'cause we're, that's what we're talking about.
35:58 - 36:00
If we're talking about stress and anxiety and worry about
36:00 - 36:01
stuff, money is a part of that.
36:01 - 36:02
It's gonna show up somewhere.
36:02 - 36:05
And most clinicians are like, Nope, we're just gonna like pretend
36:05 - 36:06
we're not talking about that.
36:06 - 36:08
Let's go talk about your sex life instead because we'd rather do that.
36:09 - 36:10
That's what Americans are saying.
36:10 - 36:12
We'd rather talk about our sex lives than our money
36:12 - 36:14
and considering how shameful we are about sex life.
36:14 - 36:18
Like what is it, seven 60 or 70% of people don't share their full
36:18 - 36:19
range of fantasy with their partner.
36:19 - 36:19
Yeah.
36:19 - 36:20
And money's worth, that's
36:20 - 36:22
why I love Mojo upgrade.
36:22 - 36:24
Like, Hey, if you don't wanna, this would be awkward, but let's just go and endorse
36:24 - 36:26
all the things we're interested in.
36:26 - 36:28
Can we actually like have a conversation?
36:28 - 36:29
So plug that for your listeners.
36:29 - 36:30
Mojo upgrade for like, what do I want?
36:31 - 36:33
Sex wise with my partner, what am I interested in?
36:33 - 36:34
That's, that's great.
36:34 - 36:34
I'm gonna go look that up.
36:35 - 36:35
Yeah.
36:35 - 36:36
It's like literally how it works.
36:36 - 36:38
Just for listeners who are like, I don't know if, should
36:38 - 36:39
I go searching for this thing?
36:39 - 36:40
Like, this sounds questionable.
36:40 - 36:41
Especially not at work.
36:41 - 36:42
Yeah, please don't.
36:42 - 36:44
Although we know people are on PornHub in the middle of their
36:44 - 36:46
workday, that stat sticks.
36:46 - 36:47
Sticks with me for some reason.
36:48 - 36:52
But when it comes to mojo, upgrade partner, a mixed responses, whole list of
36:52 - 36:57
different interesting sex kink things that they might be interested in, they only
36:57 - 36:58
endorse the ones they're interested in.
36:58 - 36:59
Partner B, same thing.
36:59 - 37:02
What they have in common gets put on a shared list that they both can see.
37:03 - 37:05
So it actually takes away the awkwardness of like, well, you said
37:05 - 37:07
we wanted to do role playing, but that's other person's like, hell no.
37:07 - 37:08
I never wanna do that.
37:09 - 37:12
Uh, and so it creates just a list of these are the things we have
37:12 - 37:15
in common, is that now our own internal green light to try it out.
37:16 - 37:18
That sounds like a really good way to get some green lights and some
37:18 - 37:19
momentum on the other things too.
37:19 - 37:23
I think one other thing that's coming up, Tim, if this is okay, is um.
37:24 - 37:27
As we talk about money being relational, the other piece of my work in the
37:27 - 37:29
short time I've been a financial therapist in the grand scheme of
37:29 - 37:33
things is I've realized that the Enneagram is another part of this
37:33 - 37:37
equation for folks of like, okay, I have different values than my partner.
37:37 - 37:38
How do I connect with them?
37:38 - 37:41
How do I have compassion or at least neutrality, to hear them
37:41 - 37:42
out on what's important to them?
37:43 - 37:46
And so the Enneagram, that's a personality test for folks who aren't aware of it.
37:46 - 37:50
Um, it tells us how we can respond to other personality types.
37:50 - 37:53
It's kind of a roadmap of like, here you can respond this way to
37:53 - 37:54
someone who's highly intellectual.
37:54 - 37:57
Here's how you might respond to someone who's very emotional, right?
37:57 - 38:00
And they're in their deep melancholy feelings, how you
38:00 - 38:01
might interact with them.
38:01 - 38:05
And so I took it upon myself to take a deep dive with a colleague and say,
38:05 - 38:08
Hey, each of the Enneagram personality types respond differently to money.
38:09 - 38:10
And the short answer is yes.
38:10 - 38:14
They respond differently to savings, spending, and earning money differently.
38:14 - 38:17
And so we tried to put some language to that for folks of like, okay, if I
38:17 - 38:21
identify as a Enneagram three, which I do, and I'm partnered with a six,
38:21 - 38:23
which I am, how do we come together?
38:23 - 38:26
What is our commonalities and what creates that friction?
38:26 - 38:29
And so it leads to a little bit more empathy for a partner.
38:29 - 38:31
Like I can understand you from this roadmap of the Enneagram.
38:32 - 38:36
Yeah, I think the personality tests are a lot of fun now because all the ones
38:36 - 38:40
that have gotten some staying power like the Enneagram, they've got enough
38:40 - 38:41
data behind them that they're useful.
38:41 - 38:42
They're just not all encompassing.
38:42 - 38:43
I think that's where people.
38:43 - 38:46
It gets a little weird where all of a sudden your personality type becomes
38:46 - 38:49
like your, your star sign for some folks, which gets a little weird to me.
38:49 - 38:50
Yeah.
38:50 - 38:54
We don't have to like go all in in like a cultish way, but we can definitely get
38:54 - 38:55
curious about does it give us any insight?
38:56 - 38:57
Well, and just the communication style of it.
38:57 - 39:01
Like, that's one of the things I, I like about the anagram in specific for, uh,
39:01 - 39:03
communication is how it breaks down.
39:03 - 39:06
Like this is the kind of communicator you are, this is the kind of communicator
39:06 - 39:10
this person is and here's some guidance on how you two can connect.
39:10 - 39:10
So.
39:11 - 39:14
To give the listeners an example like that aren't familiar with Enneagram.
39:14 - 39:15
Like you said, you're a three, your husband's a six.
39:15 - 39:18
Can you tell us a little bit more about what that looks like?
39:18 - 39:19
Oh yeah.
39:19 - 39:20
I've been doing a lot of work around this, Tim.
39:20 - 39:22
That's why that heavy side just showed up.
39:22 - 39:22
Uh,
39:22 - 39:22
Uhhuh,
39:24 - 39:26
what do I wanna share with listeners and how deep do I wanna go?
39:26 - 39:29
Enneagram threes are described as achievers.
39:29 - 39:29
Go figure.
39:29 - 39:31
I'm a serial entrepreneur for better or worse.
39:31 - 39:34
Tim and I talked about this off the recording.
39:34 - 39:38
Um, but that means that I tend in my most unhealthy to steam roll ahead.
39:38 - 39:40
It means I'm gonna steamroll over my loved ones.
39:40 - 39:42
It means I'm gonna try and control people.
39:42 - 39:44
I know that that's my growth edge.
39:44 - 39:45
That's where I need to work on myself.
39:45 - 39:47
I become a royal bitch and I don't like it.
39:48 - 39:50
For my husband who's an Enneagram six, he lives in anxiety
39:50 - 39:51
and that has its strengths.
39:51 - 39:55
Like he can see worst case scenario, he can plan ahead.
39:55 - 39:56
He makes a really good.
39:56 - 39:59
Person in the workplace that can be like, let's look at our contingency
39:59 - 40:00
plans if shit hits the fan.
40:01 - 40:04
And so sixes shine when it comes to, I have thought of all the possible
40:04 - 40:07
outcomes, including all the horrible ones that no one wants to sit in.
40:08 - 40:11
And so when Ice steamroll ahead, he wants to dig in his heels, he's
40:11 - 40:12
like, no, let's like not rush this.
40:12 - 40:15
Let's not rush car purchase, for example.
40:15 - 40:18
Um, let's look at and research all the different types of cars.
40:18 - 40:21
Let's look at the better driver, whatever the website is of
40:21 - 40:22
like their ratings, right?
40:22 - 40:23
He's like, let's take that deep dive.
40:24 - 40:24
And I'm like.
40:25 - 40:27
And my mental load is like this big as in small.
40:27 - 40:30
And I'm like, I just, I know what I want and I just wanna go for it.
40:30 - 40:30
Right?
40:30 - 40:34
So it can cause conflict because when we're talking big financial
40:34 - 40:37
decisions like a car purchase, of course there's gonna be friction there.
40:38 - 40:41
And so it, not only does it lead to communication styles, it talks about
40:41 - 40:46
our core motivations, core motivator for, um, the anxious type six could
40:46 - 40:47
be, I wanna feel stable and secure.
40:48 - 40:50
And stable in security is like in direct contrast to
40:50 - 40:52
entrepreneurship and risk, right?
40:52 - 40:56
So even when we got together with our first financial planner and he asked,
40:56 - 40:57
what do you want from your money?
40:57 - 40:59
My husband said, I want stability.
40:59 - 41:00
And I said, I want freedom.
41:01 - 41:06
And when I, when he said stability, I literally went like, what?
41:06 - 41:08
Like it was like a bad word to say.
41:08 - 41:08
Stability.
41:08 - 41:12
Now having done my own financial therapy work, I know that you can have both.
41:12 - 41:14
I know that both can be pursued.
41:14 - 41:17
Um, but then it was like polarizing of like, you want stability and
41:17 - 41:20
I want freedom, and how are we supposed to do this as a couple?
41:20 - 41:22
So lots there, lots there to unpack.
41:22 - 41:24
Well, I think that's the beauty of, um.
41:25 - 41:27
Like I was talking with somebody else about this and the, the two kind of
41:27 - 41:31
strongest couple types I generally see, and I don't see couples, but just hearing
41:31 - 41:36
about it in the world, right, working with the husbands is either, they're a
41:36 - 41:40
very similar personality type to their partner, and then they just like move
41:40 - 41:43
like a bullet train through life until something goes wrong, and then everything
41:43 - 41:47
falls apart for a minute because there's, there's no varied skillset, right?
41:47 - 41:50
So as long as they both like it in the same lane, they, which is great,
41:50 - 41:53
we go really fast and then they're like, oh no, something went wrong.
41:54 - 41:58
And then on the other end is the like almost polar opposite couple
41:58 - 42:00
that respect each other, right?
42:00 - 42:03
Where that builds a lot more of a stable life.
42:03 - 42:06
It sounds like you and your husband, like when you're at your best, right.
42:06 - 42:08
You push things, you get more.
42:08 - 42:09
And he keeps the guardrails on
42:09 - 42:10
exactly.
42:10 - 42:12
Like he'll keep my feet on the ground, my head's in the clouds.
42:13 - 42:17
Um, the more I've done Enneagram training, I'm now certified to do Enneagram
42:17 - 42:19
work, the more language I got for this.
42:19 - 42:21
And so like, they're like, oh yeah, A six is the glue.
42:21 - 42:22
And I was like, oh my gosh.
42:22 - 42:24
I've described my husband as the glue to my life for the
42:24 - 42:25
15 years we've been together.
42:26 - 42:29
Um, so it was like interesting to see how that just naturally shows up.
42:29 - 42:31
And when you look at the Enneagram image, there's all these lines
42:31 - 42:33
connecting different types.
42:33 - 42:35
So a very common que question I get is like, what types are
42:35 - 42:37
compatible with other types?
42:37 - 42:39
And I was just saying this to someone the other day, it's
42:39 - 42:41
actually easier for me to name what types you're not compatible with.
42:41 - 42:44
Where it feels like oil and water where, where it's not gonna mix well.
42:45 - 42:48
Um, but threes and sixes are very compatible, so I feel very fortunate.
42:48 - 42:51
And that doesn't mean that if you partner with anyone other than a
42:51 - 42:53
six as a three, that you're doomed.
42:53 - 42:56
It's just looking at where are they with their health versus stress
42:56 - 42:58
response to their Enneagram type.
42:58 - 43:01
Well, and I think that's the thing about all these models that we talk about, uh,
43:01 - 43:05
just for like the self-help community, the clinical health community, like if
43:05 - 43:07
they start being descriptive, that's.
43:07 - 43:10
If they start being predictive, that tends to go sideways.
43:10 - 43:13
That's that cultish thing of like, there's a run right way to be a
43:13 - 43:15
three or a six or two or a nine
43:15 - 43:18
or like the, you know, the attachment styles or another one now that
43:18 - 43:21
like, you know, thanks to TikTok therapy are now like, you know, as
43:21 - 43:24
opposed to just acknowledging like, I'm like this around these topics.
43:25 - 43:25
I've got work to do.
43:25 - 43:27
And you're like that around those topics.
43:27 - 43:27
You've got work to do.
43:27 - 43:29
Let's see where we can come together on it.
43:29 - 43:32
And the Enneagram stuff, that's, that was a big part of your book, right?
43:32 - 43:35
I co-wrote, co-authored a book called Your Enneagram and Money.
43:35 - 43:38
So it really is meant to be like a bite-sized book as a three.
43:38 - 43:41
That's something else people need to know as like, I'm succinct
43:41 - 43:42
when it comes to writing.
43:42 - 43:44
So my books are like quickly produced and out there.
43:44 - 43:48
But this book isn't meant to be like a huge book that takes people forever.
43:48 - 43:50
Some people go straight to their Enneagram type if they know it, and
43:50 - 43:53
others are looking at their partners type and getting some insight.
43:53 - 43:55
But we break it down by subtypes of Enneagram.
43:55 - 43:58
'cause there's actually 27 types total, not just the nine most people know about.
43:59 - 44:03
And then we look at, um, spending, saving, earning potential for all
44:03 - 44:05
of those 27 types with stories.
44:05 - 44:06
So I'm a storyteller by nature.
44:07 - 44:09
I like giving stories of like, here's how this might show up
44:09 - 44:11
behaviorally with stories in the book.
44:11 - 44:12
It was a lot of fun.
44:12 - 44:15
Like so one, it's a short book that they can absolutely read
44:15 - 44:16
and get, get some ideas on.
44:16 - 44:17
Yeah, it's like
44:17 - 44:17
undefined
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undefined
44:17 - 44:18
pages, not,
44:18 - 44:18
not long.
44:18 - 44:20
Yes, it's not, it's not long.
44:20 - 44:22
Well, and I really liked the training that you did at the state conference on
44:22 - 44:26
it, like that was, it was really nice to finally, because we've done so much
44:26 - 44:29
work around the suicidality stuff, it was really nice to see you in your Arthur
44:29 - 44:32
Lane and that's why I was excited to bring you on to talk to folks about this.
44:32 - 44:37
Like, it's interesting, I think there's probably four or five different frames
44:37 - 44:39
that I point clients out around money.
44:40 - 44:40
Right.
44:40 - 44:44
There's like yours and the Enneagram stuff and kind of getting it personality based.
44:44 - 44:48
Then there's like the live Your Rich Life guy and his stuff is great and I
44:48 - 44:51
don't think it matters terribly much when you get to an established one.
44:52 - 44:56
It's just can this f work for you and your life and your partner to give you what you
44:56 - 45:00
need to have the emotional and the logic conversation happening at the same time?
45:00 - 45:02
There's no one size fits all.
45:02 - 45:03
That's why we have thousands of books about money.
45:04 - 45:08
So a lot of people, it's just like helping bring them from the shame-based books to
45:08 - 45:11
the financial therapy aligned books, which is the shorter list as you can imagine.
45:11 - 45:14
Financial therapy's only been around for about 20 years.
45:14 - 45:14
It's not that old.
45:15 - 45:17
And so we have a lot of work to do, but I think it's now becoming more of a
45:17 - 45:21
household name of like, this is another service, another opportunity to keep
45:21 - 45:25
working on ourselves or in our coupleship, right, of like, how do we make that work?
45:25 - 45:28
Um, but yeah, people are like, oh my God, when they find out what financial
45:28 - 45:31
therapy is, more often than not, people say, I've needed this forever,
45:31 - 45:32
or I know someone who needs this.
45:32 - 45:32
So.
45:33 - 45:34
It's pretty exciting.
45:34 - 45:37
Well, I think it goes into the, like the argument that we don't teach in
45:37 - 45:41
high school financial literacy and we don't teach emotional literacy.
45:41 - 45:44
And more and more, especially as AI is replacing logic-based work.
45:45 - 45:48
That seems like something we should be teaching teenagers.
45:49 - 45:49
Yeah.
45:49 - 45:49
It's another soapbox.
45:51 - 45:55
Well, so we've got your book, um, and your website to get
45:55 - 45:56
folks some more information on.
45:57 - 46:00
Are there one or two other thought leaders that you're really impressed
46:00 - 46:02
by that maybe have a little bit of a different voice than you?
46:02 - 46:03
Yeah, absolutely.
46:03 - 46:08
So, um, ed Combs is a marriage and family therapist, financial therapist.
46:08 - 46:10
He's also a firefighter, so definitely someone secure in his
46:10 - 46:14
masculinity with three children and a wife that, um, is a high earner.
46:14 - 46:17
And so I definitely think of his book, which is called The Healthy
46:17 - 46:20
Lovey Healthy Love and Money Way.
46:21 - 46:23
Um, it is those attachment styles as it relates to money.
46:23 - 46:25
So where you show up an anxious attachment, avoid an attachment,
46:25 - 46:26
disorganized or secure.
46:27 - 46:30
Um, and he is someone that I think, you know, obviously speaks to men,
46:30 - 46:34
is a man has a lived experience and his path was not linear.
46:34 - 46:38
So I love hearing his story woven throughout the book as to how he
46:38 - 46:41
came to be a financial therapist and now he's a financial therapist
46:41 - 46:43
and financial planner for couples.
46:43 - 46:47
So he does a lot of great emotion containment to talk about
46:47 - 46:49
investments and financial planning.
46:49 - 46:51
Well, that's gonna be a trip transitioning from a firefighter to that.
46:52 - 46:52
Yeah,
46:52 - 46:52
that's a good
46:52 - 46:52
time.
46:52 - 46:53
Yeah, he's a cool guy.
46:53 - 46:53
Yeah.
46:54 - 46:55
Sounds like a guy I wanna get a beer with.
46:55 - 46:56
Right.
46:56 - 46:58
I keep trying to get him in Colorado 'cause he needs to come
46:58 - 47:00
out here for a couple things now.
47:00 - 47:03
Uh, but yeah, he's, he's in North Carolina I believe, and so he's one,
47:04 - 47:06
there are a couple female authors that are really like into the
47:06 - 47:08
female empowerment with money stuff.
47:08 - 47:10
So I don't think that's relevant to your audience here.
47:10 - 47:16
But, um, there's one called Feel Good Finance and that's Asia Evans as a female
47:16 - 47:18
financial therapist, woman of color.
47:19 - 47:22
Uh, she speaks to like some of the cultural aspects and
47:22 - 47:26
financial intergenerational trauma that comes up there.
47:26 - 47:26
So feel good.
47:26 - 47:29
Finance would be another one that people might enjoy.
47:29 - 47:31
Well, and I imagine that one's got a lot of cross relevance.
47:31 - 47:35
Like a lot of folks that I work with that either, uh, grew up poor.
47:36 - 47:38
In a family that had been poor long enough that there's
47:38 - 47:41
generational, like weight on poverty.
47:41 - 47:41
Yeah.
47:41 - 47:45
Or uh, folks that grew up with families that lost it either to
47:45 - 47:49
addiction or just poor decisions and kinda what that looks like.
47:49 - 47:53
And so the, the unpacking the history of your family with money goes a long
47:53 - 47:57
way that I don't, I don't think people quite give the weight and credence
47:57 - 47:59
it needs in your individual work.
47:59 - 47:59
Right.
47:59 - 48:02
Like you're, you're an amalgam of who you came from.
48:03 - 48:05
And so you've gotta know that before you can know where you want to go.
48:05 - 48:10
Well, so I'll make sure, uh, we've been, uh, partnered with uh, good
48:10 - 48:14
bookstore.com and, uh, they pair you up with a local bookstore and
48:14 - 48:16
they'll ship books to you like Amazon.
48:16 - 48:18
So it ends up being about two or three bucks more for a book.
48:18 - 48:20
But you get to support the local bookstore.
48:20 - 48:21
And we've got a few lists.
48:21 - 48:23
I'll make sure that for this episode, we get.
48:24 - 48:28
Your books, these two and probably, uh, the Live Your Rich Life book too on there.
48:28 - 48:29
Just 'cause I like it.
48:29 - 48:32
And that way folks are looking for a more deep dive into these things to go through.
48:33 - 48:37
What I generally recommend guys do is if they're on their own to, to read it
48:37 - 48:38
and kind of come up with a value set.
48:38 - 48:40
So that way when they're looking for their partners and they're looking
48:40 - 48:42
for somebody to build something with, they find somebody that's kind of
48:42 - 48:45
compatible either from like you and your husband where they are, they're
48:45 - 48:48
filling something that you don't necessarily do, or they find somebody
48:48 - 48:51
that's in alignment and they can just go really fast until something breaks.
48:51 - 48:52
Right, right.
48:52 - 48:52
Bullet train.
48:52 - 48:53
Mm-hmm.
48:53 - 48:55
Which is a valid way to go about it.
48:55 - 48:59
Like the, you know, the breakage is rough, but that, that fast thing that
48:59 - 49:00
those couples do is really impressive.
49:00 - 49:03
And then if they're coupled right, I. I think that this is a
49:03 - 49:06
great like check-in thing, right?
49:06 - 49:09
Where you and your partner read the book and come back together or
49:09 - 49:11
listen to the podcast and come back together and talk about these things.
49:11 - 49:13
So hopefully guys can use 'em.
49:13 - 49:17
I hope people do the exercises like you had already kinda named individually or in
49:17 - 49:19
a couple, even just the word association.
49:19 - 49:22
Some people might feel inclined to do like a money family tree or money
49:22 - 49:26
genogram, which we're all super fans of here in the financial therapy space.
49:26 - 49:29
So all of us would actually ask people to do that, but there is something
49:29 - 49:32
so powerful about the handwritten.
49:32 - 49:36
Aspect and then seeing the visual kind of pop out of like, look, three generations
49:36 - 49:37
of people with financial trauma.
49:37 - 49:40
Look, here's people who haven't ever talked about money.
49:40 - 49:41
Of course I don't wanna talk about money.
49:41 - 49:45
So just added self-compassion when we see generation to generation
49:45 - 49:46
stuff that's been passed on.
49:46 - 49:49
So when I think of the, the genogram, I always think of
49:49 - 49:50
like a fancied family tree.
49:50 - 49:50
No.
49:52 - 49:53
Yep, exactly.
49:54 - 49:56
Uh, so for the folks that aren't familiar, can you describe
49:56 - 49:57
the genogram a little bit?
49:57 - 49:57
Yeah.
49:57 - 50:00
Most people are encouraged to go three generations back.
50:00 - 50:02
So it might start with you as the listener, followed by your parents
50:02 - 50:06
or whoever raised you, followed by whoever raised and birthed them.
50:06 - 50:10
And so, um, it tends to be child, to parent, to grandparent as the
50:10 - 50:12
three generations is just an example.
50:12 - 50:13
Or if you have your own children, they go below you.
50:14 - 50:17
And a lot of times people kind of nerd out about format, but I'm just
50:17 - 50:20
like, draw circles for all I care circles and put names, put ages.
50:20 - 50:24
And then from the financial side of it, the questions I have people ask are,
50:24 - 50:26
what did they teach me about money?
50:26 - 50:27
What beliefs might have they had about money?
50:27 - 50:29
What careers did they have?
50:29 - 50:32
Um, and then did they have any financial traumas?
50:32 - 50:34
And financial trauma, by definition, is all encompassing.
50:34 - 50:38
So when people think financial trauma, they only think loss like layoff.
50:39 - 50:39
Uh.
50:39 - 50:41
Maybe someone cheated them out of money.
50:41 - 50:45
Maybe somebody took their identity and stole it and did all sorts of awfulness.
50:45 - 50:48
But financial trauma is a spectrum of experiences.
50:48 - 50:51
So it can also be things like, my parents fought constantly about
50:51 - 50:52
money and that was traumatic.
50:52 - 50:56
Um, so just like you and I as mental health people know, clients, whatever
50:56 - 50:58
they tell us is traumatic is traumatic.
50:58 - 51:00
We don't tell them what's financial trauma.
51:00 - 51:01
They tell us what's financial trauma.
51:02 - 51:02
And so.
51:03 - 51:06
On this genogram or fancy family tree, you're just kind of putting some
51:06 - 51:09
stuff to the side of people's names of like, here's a whole history of
51:09 - 51:11
people who were agricultural farmers.
51:11 - 51:12
Right.
51:12 - 51:15
Of like, oh, well that explains some of the safe save, save safer
51:15 - 51:18
emergencies beliefs, because that was how they handled things, that
51:18 - 51:20
half their crops were destroyed.
51:20 - 51:21
Right.
51:21 - 51:23
So like there's a lot of insight just by mapping it out visually.
51:23 - 51:24
Yeah.
51:24 - 51:28
I think a lot about, uh, my family where my grandfather, uh, he was
51:28 - 51:31
a classic fifties provider dad.
51:31 - 51:31
Right.
51:31 - 51:32
And he.
51:32 - 51:33
He killed himself early.
51:33 - 51:37
We lost him at 63 because he worked that much to get money for the family.
51:38 - 51:42
But then the trauma of that with my father was, my father didn't value money, right?
51:42 - 51:44
He was like, well, it's not worth it to get that then.
51:44 - 51:45
So just spend it live.
51:45 - 51:46
Your life.
51:46 - 51:46
Doesn't matter.
51:46 - 51:48
Don't have any security.
51:48 - 51:54
And I, what's interesting is, is people's stories are so unique and
51:54 - 51:55
then come to the same problems.
51:55 - 51:56
Right, which is super fun.
51:57 - 52:01
But I, I think by naming where your family and background is around
52:01 - 52:05
money helps you name where you are and give you a better understanding.
52:05 - 52:07
So I hope the guys listening take some time and do that.
52:08 - 52:09
I think it'll be really good.
52:10 - 52:13
Um, and if you have a video to like that takes somebody through genogram, well
52:13 - 52:15
let me know and I'll, I'll link it in the show notes so that folks can have
52:15 - 52:19
it as a resource if, uh, have you done any like public training for that yet?
52:19 - 52:21
I think you've got some videos up, right?
52:21 - 52:22
Uh, not specific to genogram.
52:22 - 52:23
That would actually be Ed Combs.
52:24 - 52:27
Uh, stuff, but because we just put together a book together, I have
52:27 - 52:30
an image that I'm happy to send you to put in the show notes for folks.
52:30 - 52:33
They can kind of see how it would map out of like, yes, it has
52:33 - 52:36
some of the polarizing language of spender and saver and frugal
52:36 - 52:38
and not frugal, blah, blah, blah.
52:38 - 52:41
But it was just an example for folks who might wanna start mapping one out.
52:41 - 52:42
So happy to send that.
52:43 - 52:43
That'd be great.
52:44 - 52:47
I, one of the things I like about having you and other, uh.
52:47 - 52:51
Like education, clinicians is, we always have resources on like,
52:51 - 52:52
okay, Joe, go, go try this, right?
52:52 - 52:53
Yeah.
52:53 - 52:55
Here's a, here's an image, here's a graphic or something.
52:55 - 52:55
Go,
52:56 - 52:57
go play with it and see where it takes you.
52:57 - 52:58
Yeah,
52:58 - 52:58
for sure.
52:59 - 53:01
Well, I wanna be respectful of your time and let you get a little break before your
53:01 - 53:06
next thing Today, uh, last time we had you on, we had you answer the question
53:06 - 53:09
of what's the truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12?
53:09 - 53:10
That's remained true.
53:10 - 53:13
And yours is probably one of my favorite answers from a go, which
53:13 - 53:14
is, don't suffer fools and kick ass.
53:16 - 53:16
Right, right.
53:17 - 53:18
It's still true.
53:18 - 53:18
Still true.
53:18 - 53:19
It's still still true.
53:19 - 53:20
Still actively true.
53:21 - 53:21
Oh man.
53:21 - 53:24
Is there a, is there another lesson that you might share with folks
53:24 - 53:26
that's been useful in your life?
53:27 - 53:27
Oh man.
53:27 - 53:30
I've been working on my own therapy, so Harris's, me being completely
53:30 - 53:32
transparent with listeners.
53:32 - 53:35
So the one that's coming up right now is what it looks like to
53:35 - 53:37
actually show emotion as a man.
53:37 - 53:37
Right.
53:37 - 53:38
So, um.
53:38 - 53:41
Yeah, my dad definitely was the masculine, tough guy.
53:41 - 53:44
People were more afraid of him when they should be more afraid of my mother.
53:44 - 53:45
My husband was smart enough.
53:45 - 53:47
He actually was the first to say, I'm not afraid of your dad.
53:47 - 53:48
I'm afraid of your mom.
53:48 - 53:49
And I was like, oh, how interesting.
53:49 - 53:50
This is why we're together.
53:51 - 53:53
'cause my dad's a big teddy bear, but he is got the goatee and the
53:53 - 53:55
tattoos all down his arms, right?
53:55 - 53:59
So, um, I'm thinking more about the emotions that have been modeled in the
53:59 - 54:02
family tree actually in my own therapy.
54:02 - 54:04
And I would hope that men can.
54:04 - 54:08
Express emotions, and it's not just massed by anger or stuffed, which is
54:08 - 54:11
what my family did, is they stuffed a lot of emotions and that's connected to our
54:11 - 54:13
suicide conversation we've had before.
54:14 - 54:18
Um, so I learned at a young age to compartmentalize my emotions
54:18 - 54:20
and now I'm starting to feel all of them for better or worse.
54:21 - 54:24
But hey, as a financial therapist slash mental health therapist, gotta
54:24 - 54:25
practice what I preach to clients.
54:25 - 54:26
So here we are.
54:26 - 54:28
Yeah, I think like it, it's interesting, right?
54:28 - 54:32
When we think of like being able to be stoic as masculine, I think
54:32 - 54:33
it's an important skill to have.
54:34 - 54:36
Like, I liked Robert Allison's, uh, take on this, right?
54:36 - 54:38
He's like, I feel like our whole job as clinicians working
54:38 - 54:40
with men is to teach guys.
54:40 - 54:42
You don't have to hold it together all the time, but you have to
54:42 - 54:44
hold it together most of the time.
54:45 - 54:49
And I think that's the, the gift of fathers like yours is, you
54:49 - 54:52
know, that you can operate in a world while holding emotion.
54:53 - 54:55
They just didn't give you the other end of when it's okay.
54:56 - 54:58
Like, okay, so now we're through the world and we're home and
54:58 - 55:01
we're with our people and we can have the moment to tend to that.
55:03 - 55:05
Like you got through the workday, you got through the hard
55:05 - 55:07
thing, and that is masculine.
55:07 - 55:09
It is to put your head down and do the fucking thing.
55:10 - 55:15
But then afterwards, how do you like take some pride in that?
55:15 - 55:18
How do you process the pain that it took to get through it?
55:18 - 55:22
How do you model for the young men around you that Yemen, you do the hard thing
55:22 - 55:26
and then you celebrate the fruits of that and some of the celebration of that is.
55:27 - 55:30
Being with your safe people and having that emotionality.
55:30 - 55:31
Beautifully said Tim.
55:31 - 55:31
Yeah.
55:32 - 55:32
Yeah.
55:32 - 55:35
So there's a lot there that I'm working on, and I'm sure I'll be having some
55:35 - 55:39
conversations with my dad here soon once I have the language, like, you know,
55:39 - 55:41
we're both allowed to cry now, right?
55:41 - 55:42
Like we're both getting older.
55:43 - 55:47
Well, if your track record shows, uh, any kind of true, I'm sure in six months
55:47 - 55:51
it'll be a very different conversation as that will move, as you don't tend
55:51 - 55:53
to sit still on any problems you have.
55:53 - 55:53
It's true.
55:53 - 55:54
It's part of that Enneagram threeness.
55:54 - 55:57
Now people have like quick snapshot of how that looks.
55:57 - 55:57
Yeah.
55:57 - 55:58
For sure.
55:58 - 56:00
Is there any kinda last thing that you wanna leave the listeners
56:00 - 56:01
with before we say goodbye?
56:02 - 56:05
I mean, all of this kind of work, it's just an invitation to stay curious and
56:05 - 56:07
have compassion for yourself and others.
56:07 - 56:11
So there is no one right way to deal with money, to heal from money.
56:11 - 56:14
Uh, hopefully the tools mentioned today are a starting place, but it might just
56:14 - 56:16
be the tip of the iceberg for some folks.
56:16 - 56:19
I know we talked offline about some people might be like, I wanna be a financial
56:19 - 56:23
therapist and so I will make a plug for the book Becoming a Financial Therapist,
56:23 - 56:25
which Ed Combs and I wrote together.
56:25 - 56:27
And it's just, it's like a Chicken Soup for the soul kind of book.
56:27 - 56:30
Like little stories of people who started this profession of
56:30 - 56:35
financial therapy and none of us had a linear path to getting here.
56:36 - 56:39
But it's a really inspiring, in my mind, an inspiring book of,
56:39 - 56:41
Hey, here are 20 stories of the champions of financial therapy.
56:42 - 56:44
And welcome to the community, welcome to the team.
56:45 - 56:47
So people want that inspiration.
56:47 - 56:48
They can check out that book.
56:48 - 56:50
Yeah, I think I, I've got a few clients that work in finance
56:50 - 56:51
that I'm gonna throw that at.
56:51 - 56:52
Yeah.
56:52 - 56:53
Just to see if it resonates.
56:53 - 56:54
Like, hell yeah.
56:54 - 56:55
This is what I've been missing.
56:55 - 56:56
I want this kind of job,
56:56 - 56:58
man, you are great at the math and the hustle.
56:58 - 57:02
Like maybe, you know, maybe this will, this will add something.
57:02 - 57:03
Yeah,
57:03 - 57:04
yeah.
57:05 - 57:07
Well, as always, I'm, I'm so happy you're in the community and I'm really
57:07 - 57:09
glad that we get to connect like this.
57:09 - 57:10
So thank you so much for coming on.
57:11 - 57:11
Thanks, Tim.
57:11 - 57:11
Thank you.
57:11 - 57:14
That's our conversation about mental health men and money.
57:14 - 57:16
As always, we fact check the episode and have a few clarifications.
57:17 - 57:19
First, money and divorce statistics.
57:19 - 57:22
I stated that money was the number one cause of divorce.
57:22 - 57:26
While financial conflict is a major engagement area present in 20 to 40% of
57:26 - 57:27
cases, it's not the primary reported.
57:28 - 57:31
Cause research confirms that the leading causes are lack of commitment,
57:31 - 57:33
infidelity, and chronic conflict.
57:33 - 57:36
The mixup happened because I conflated what I see in my practice every day with
57:36 - 57:39
the national averages Moving forward, I'll be sharper about separating my clinical
57:39 - 57:41
experience from the hard statistics.
57:41 - 57:43
You know exactly where the information is coming from.
57:43 - 57:46
Second, we said around 73% of entrepreneurs have a DHD.
57:46 - 57:47
That number overstated.
57:47 - 57:50
Research shows that A DHD traits are more common among
57:50 - 57:52
entrepreneurs, roughly 25 to 35%.
57:52 - 57:56
Or roughly three times as high as the rest of the population.
57:56 - 57:59
While that's statistically relevant, it's still not the majority of entrepreneurs.
57:59 - 58:03
Third, when discussing Saver spender gender pairings, it's important to
58:03 - 58:06
clarify that while men on average score slightly higher on financial literacy
58:06 - 58:11
assessments, that reflects social and educational factors, not inheritability.
58:11 - 58:14
There's significant variation within couples and women often manage
58:14 - 58:15
day-to-day household finances.
58:16 - 58:19
Finally, when we talked about persistent marital arguments, we said that 70% of
58:19 - 58:21
them don't change after the first year.
58:21 - 58:23
A more precise framing is this.
58:23 - 58:29
69% of marital arguments after the first year are perpetual, meaning that they stem
58:29 - 58:33
from enduring differences, not that they began in the first year and freeze there.
58:33 - 58:37
As always, full a PA sources are in the show notes on the website.
58:37 - 58:38
Please let us know if we got anything else wrong.
58:38 - 58:40
Thanks for listening to the end.
58:40 - 58:41
We're glad you found the information useful.
58:42 - 58:45
Make sure to rate, review, and subscribe so that we can continue providing
58:45 - 58:46
clear information to guys who need it.
58:46 - 58:49
See you next week When we talk about Nice Guys anger and what it's
58:49 - 58:52
really costing them, this is Tim Winkie with American Masculinity.
58:52 - 58:53
Wishing you the very best day.
58:54 - 58:54
Take care.