Speaker 4: [00:00:00] What does stoicism actually say about what you can control and what happens when you stop trying to control everything else? Is stoicism about wearing emotional armor or something deeper ethical [00:00:10] steadiness when it counts the most. If you're looking for the answer to those questions, you're in the right place. Speaker 5: If I instead act cold and calculating and and professional, is that not a suppressing and emotion Speaker 4: like your emotions are [00:00:20] simply to be managed and put away not as a director of what judgment am I missing? The Speaker 5: point is being a good person is pretty [00:00:30] badass once you know what it is. Speaker 4: My name's Tim Winneke, licensed therapist and Air Force Veteran, and in our 27th episode of American Masculinity, we've got William Spears coming to help answer those questions. Speaker 4: [00:00:40] Commander Spears is a 20 year active duty naval submarine officer and a stoic scholar who just published his first book, stoicism as a Warrior philosophy. We're digging into what stoicism [00:00:50] actually demands, how it gets misused, and how you can use it in your life during your most critical situations to come out the other side as who you wanna be. Speaker 4: Why you listen, think about this. What's somewhere where you're [00:01:00] using emotional armor too much and awareness Not enough. We'll talk more about it at the end. Let's get started.[00:01:10] Speaker 4: Hey, thanks so much for coming on and talking to us about this. Speaker 5: Yeah. Hey Tim. I'm glad to be here before we get going. Sure. I do need to say that anything I say here is [00:01:20] just my own opinion speaking as William C. Spears. It doesn't represent an official position of the US government or Navy or anything like that. Speaker 5: If I endorse some product or some [00:01:30] hyperlink or something like that, it has nothing to do with the Navy's opinion. That's just, that's just me. Speaker 4: So I was really excited to find you because I get really tired of how stoicism is [00:01:40] portrayed in the world. I get a lot of guys that get kind of focused on the mix up between being stoic and contained [00:01:50] instead of using a philosophical discipline to be a better man in the world, and. Speaker 4: I think you're one of the better guys to talk to about this. So [00:02:00] how are we confusing emotional containment and emotional discipline? Like what's your take on that after all of the work you've done in stoicism? Speaker 5: Okay, well, with, with, with respect to [00:02:10] stoicism, one thing I'll say is that it's like week two of browsing stoic blogs where you, you get your card that gives you license to, to just say everyone else is [00:02:20] doing it wrong. Speaker 5: So I, I try not to, I try not to be that guy. I think that the only real counter to misinformation is just to put out better information rather than spending a lot of time [00:02:30] complaining about it. And, you know, different people get different things out of it. I mean, stoicism is, is going through this big explosion of popularity right now. Speaker 5: And there, [00:02:40] there are people out there that will treat it like a religion, you know, and say like, I am a stoic and that means I believe X, Y, Z. And if anyone doesn't believe that, then they [00:02:50] can't be it. And then there's other people who are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, stoicism, I watched Gladiator, I'm stoic. You know? Speaker 5: And, and, and like. I don't care. The main [00:03:00] thing is, is that just people who, I think if you're missing certain components of it, and if you don't dig below the surface of it, then you're, you're just missing a lot of [00:03:10] value. You're, you're leaving a lot on the table. And I, you know, I'd hate for that to happen, but I, I don't, I don't see myself as some guardian of what stoicism really means. Speaker 5: And that's kind of one of the, one of the [00:03:20] points that I, I make in my writing is I don't call myself a stoic. It's easier for me to, just as a simplifying assumption to say that part of the necessary and sufficient conditions of a [00:03:30] stoic is that you lived 2000 years ago or thereabouts. And that way don't have to quibble about what it really means. Speaker 5: It's more of a, this is philosophy and, and to [00:03:40] properly engage philosophy, you need to read the ideas and say, well, I agree with that, or I don't, and, you know, do that work. And so I encourage people to do that work. To your [00:03:50] question, containment versus discipline and emotions. I, I mean, containment is just saying. Speaker 5: You know, well, I'm not angry, you know, whenever you actually are. I, I think [00:04:00] that that would be the problem versus disciplining your actions, recognizing and pointing out, man, I'm emotional right now and I am not going to do the [00:04:10] thing that I would really like to do. I push back a little bit on, so. In, in, in a lot of those week two people and a lot of the online discourse of on [00:04:20] around stoicism, you've got a lot of people who, who will say, well, no, no, no. Speaker 5: It's really understanding your emotions and getting in touch with your emotions and, and we would never want to suppress [00:04:30] them. And so like, we should be clear if we're gonna say we never want to suppress our emotions, we should be clear what we're saying and what we're not saying. For example, if I'm in [00:04:40] a business meeting and I'm giving a presentation and some jerk peer of mine wants to embarrass me and says something really embarrassing or really insulting, and [00:04:50] I'm furious at that statement, I'm furious at this, this outcome, and I want to launch across the table at the guy. Speaker 5: But I don't, is that suppressing, is that [00:05:00] not suppressing an emotion if I instead act cold and calculating and, and professional? Is that not a suppressing an emotion? Speaker 4: You know? Well, so this is, I think the, the distinction [00:05:10] between suppression and management, right? Yeah. Discipline to me is always managing the, the frame that I really like to use clinically for people that seems to resonate is if we think of our life as we're trying to [00:05:20] get somewhere, your body and behaviors is the car you're traveling in. Speaker 4: Your emotions is a compass and a gas tank. And your logical mind and reasoning is the map of the territory. [00:05:30] And you can get places with just one. You do better with two. And if you get all three in alignment. Things go really well. Speaker 5: Yeah, I like that map analogy. That's really good. My other [00:05:40] example for this, uh, you'll mention it in the intro, but I, I'm in the Navy. Speaker 5: I'm a, I'm a submarine officer. A lot of our job is, is spent in, in, on the con or in the control room [00:05:50] of the submarine, barking orders and, and saying, you know, left full rudder, steady course 2, 1 0, and blah, blah, blah, blah, dive, make your depth, whatever. And. If I'm in that sit, that that can [00:06:00] be a very intense situation if I'm managing contacts and trying not to get the ship run over, trying not to get detected or whatever. Speaker 5: There can be, there can be some very intense things going on and there can be some [00:06:10] emotions flying. Now that is not a time to, to break out into tears or to be yelling across the room. I think that that is emotional management, but the [00:06:20] difference is recognizing. That there is an impression there that has made me emotional. Speaker 5: There's some judgment underlying that impression. Mm-hmm. And trying to, trying to get at that, that's [00:06:30] what stoicism actually involves. The philosophies of stoicism is identifying the underlying impression, saying that there, there's some judgment call [00:06:40] leading to this emotion. And I, I do think that the ancient stokes were a bit unrealistic in their degree to which that they, they think that people [00:06:50] can control those judgments or necessarily isolate a, a, an emotion to a judgment. Speaker 5: But that's the theoretical framework and it's a very. Useful one. I think [00:07:00] that they recognized that they were unrealistic in their, their model of the sage to some degree. But that whole, that, that use of the, an ideal [00:07:10] wise person would view this situation like this, uh, that is a model for what right looks like. Speaker 5: And being able to say, well, that's what perfect would look like. [00:07:20] How can I get closer to that? Is a very useful way to, to, to, to look at it. So, well, yeah. It's kind of a roundabout way of answering your question, but Well kind Speaker 4: of Right. I think it's, for me, it's like a step one, [00:07:30] step two. Right. Containment is important, right? Speaker 4: That, uh, I think the, one of the things that military really gave me was the idea of bearing. I can feel whatever I'm feeling, but I'm [00:07:40] effective and I'm clear. And what my clinical work has taught me is it's not just not responding to the emotions in the moment. Sometimes it's leveraging the emotions to [00:07:50] do the thing you need to do. Speaker 5: That might be a, a place where orthodox stoicism kind of misses the mark. A good example is anger. Does not [00:08:00] anger make you more likely or to better do this, this thing that you should accomplish? Does it not motivate you to do the right thing sometimes? And the, [00:08:10] the stoics would deny that. I think there's two sides to that coin. Speaker 5: What a perfect person would, would look like is someone who can do that right thing without being angry. And if I am [00:08:20] a prize fighter. Do I want to be the guy that gets pissed off, or do I wanna be the guy that pisses the other guy off while I'm, I remain cold and calculating and kick his ass? Speaker 4: [00:08:30] Well, I think that's the trick though. Speaker 4: The, the fighter that feels disrespected, that gets cold and calculating when he is, anger when he is angered, means that he's angry because this [00:08:40] person slighted him. Because there's a boundary miss because there's a judgment that tells me I don't like what this other person's doing. Like it's, it's interesting to me to hear the stoics weren't [00:08:50] going to acknowledge that, that like your emotions are simply to be managed and put away. Speaker 4: Not as a director of what judgment am I missing? What are the things in my [00:09:00] life that aren't the way or are the way that I like them based on the emotional feedback I'm getting at? How do I explore those things with depth? Speaker 5: Don't get me wrong, they did not do completely suppress all [00:09:10] emotions, right? They, they believed that there were good emotions and if you reading translated stuff and they talk about passions, passions are specifically, that translates to a thing that effectively [00:09:20] means bad emotions, irrational, unruly, unjustified, whereas you pat the eye or, or what translates to rational emotions or good emotions are things like [00:09:30] joy and affection to people who are my, you know, my comrades or my friends or my family. Speaker 5: There's an emotional component to social interaction and the stoics [00:09:40] definitely believe that human beings were meant for each other. And to be a functioning member of society, you gotta, you gotta do your part and, and, and work with each other and interact with each [00:09:50] other, and. Being a, a proper friend or family member has an emotional component to it. Speaker 5: So it's not just suppression of all emotions, but it's, it's very [00:10:00] close to that. And it's probably closer to that than, than reality really kind of reflects for, for anyone. But I think it's a very valuable way to think about things. Speaker 4: No, I love that. I think it's [00:10:10] the, I, I think for those of us in mental health that are trying to leverage stoicism in our practices, we're trying to reach white guys with [00:10:20] emotional management. Speaker 4: Like, Hey, your emotions exist. Accepting they exist is gonna help you a lot. Rather than trying to shame them, contain 'em and ignore 'em. Acknowledge and direct. And [00:10:30] then act. Yeah. And the, there's some, it sounds like there's some overlap there within the stoics, but their frame isn't as much on leverage. The emotion, [00:10:40] it's acknowledge the emotions happening and do the right thing anyway. Speaker 5: Yeah. Now why white guys? What, what? Uh, Speaker 4: so for me's me, uh, the reason why it's white [00:10:50] guys is because I get, I get really annoyed at cultural appropriation. Okay. And there's a lot of wisdom in a lot of places in the world, but I feel like we do better when [00:11:00] our wisdom is within our cultural context, uhhuh. Speaker 4: And it doesn't mean that there aren't great people that do Eastern stuff that are white and get a lot outta that, but I think the stoic idea of [00:11:10] awareness has a lot better reach. When I'm talking to guys, like if I get into mindfulness and I get into the mindfulness practices of the Buddhist, it gets kind of hippie. Speaker 4: It feels a little hippie, right? And a lot of guys, [00:11:20] it just turns 'em off immediately. But if I'm like, Hey, Marcus Aurelius had this idea and they're anywhere near their forties, they're like, oh, Rome, I know Rome. This is awesome. [00:11:30] Yeah. It's Speaker 5: one of those rules, like, you turn 40, you gotta get into Rome. You're, Speaker 4: you're Rome and World War ii, right? Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so it's, it's, for me, what was really [00:11:40] nice about finding some stoic practice and being able to bring it in is I always felt a little uncomfortable with the mindfulness practice of the ways that we use it, because out here in [00:11:50] Colorado, we've got Boulder. It's a, it's a very, very big spiritual place, uh, for the Buddhist community. Speaker 4: And so there's a lot of people running around [00:12:00] claiming things that don't necessarily belong to them. Speaker 7: Okay. Speaker 4: And not do, like, kinda like what you're talking about with the stoics, where there's a lot of people that read the Cliff notes and say, I'm gonna live by these cliff [00:12:10] notes, don't do any depth and then speak to it. Speaker 4: Right. Yeah. I think you're a lot better off when your culture is in alignment with the wisdom you're doing that with. [00:12:20] Speaker 5: Yeah. I, I, I, I agree. I've never been able to get into Buddhism or, or, or the Eastern eastern philosophies. I think that they don't have the [00:12:30] same grounding and they, or they don't have the same tradition and rationality that the Hellenistic and, and, uh, Western philosophical tradition does. Speaker 5: You know, that's not to say that they don't [00:12:40] now, or that they're a modern Eastern philosopher is, is gonna be familiar with Western philosophy just as part of education. But I, I can't read everything. Sure. But the, the, [00:12:50] the eastern stuff that I have read, I'm just kind of like, it, it, it's too woo. It's too spiritual and, and not scientific enough. Speaker 5: Honestly, not to say that the, the stoics [00:13:00] who I resonate with a lot didn't have their own, their own mysticisms, but there's a rational logic to it all. And kind of the way that I've been able to articulate [00:13:10] stoicism quickly is to say it's an intersection point between. Hyper rationality and virtue ethics. Speaker 5: And uh, and I think that [00:13:20] that's a, that's an important thing and basically brings those two things into alignment is, is rationality and virtue ethics. It basically is, it's built around the idea that [00:13:30] rationality will bring you to, to virtue and to ethics. If you are rational, you will be virtuous. Yeah. Speaker 5: Someone who is absolutely rational will be absolutely virtuous. Speaker 4: Well, and I think the, [00:13:40] the trick there is, I think when a lot of guys hear it, me too, like whenever I hear rational, it always makes me think of an angry man. Because what I see a lot of in my practice and what I see a [00:13:50] lot of in my world is guys, when they get angry, they go cold and think they're rational because they're not acknowledging the anger and what's happening. Speaker 4: And that sounds Speaker 5: very [00:14:00] dangerous. It's Speaker 4: hugely dangerous and it's what ends up bringing a lot of guys into my office for anger management. Speaker 7: Okay. Speaker 4: And it's because of that misattunement for what? [00:14:10] The rational description in the stoics is, can you tell us a little bit more about what rational means in, in this framework? Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, well, [00:14:20] rationality is the exercise of reason and for, for the stoics reason is almost a, a divine quality. It is, it is what separates [00:14:30] humans from animals and, and the degree of separation is greater than the degree between animals and plants. And it is, it is a, it is a divine faculty [00:14:40] on a scale of, of life from rocks to bacteria or whatever, plants, animals, humans, and ultimately to the, the entire [00:14:50] rational universe, which they saw as synonymous with God and the spiritual and thetic. Speaker 5: A aspect is a thing that a lot of the, the [00:15:00] modern stoicism movement really seeks to paint over. Like, oh no, don't, don't say the G word, because that's gonna turn people off. And, and we will just, we'll just cut that out. And it's like. Calm down. You know, they're not [00:15:10] talking about Jesus. This was before then they're, they're talking about a pantheistic concept, and if you import your own religious baggage into this and, and [00:15:20] your own beefs with religion into this, then you're the one who's bringing things into, into things where they don't belong. Speaker 5: You know, Speaker 4: you're, I think that's the hard part is that you, when [00:15:30] we talk a lot about culture, there's this presumption that you, we don't have one. Speaker 5: Yeah. Speaker 4: And we do. And that there's a reason why, like, the brilliant [00:15:40] minds in the Eastern philosophies don't resonate with you. It's because that's not your normal, it's not in your culture. Speaker 4: Stoics are, they're more related to where you and I came up being American men. [00:15:50] Right. We're raised in a republic. Yeah. And so I think that it's western Speaker 5: as, as it as it can, as it gets, but Right. You know, phish don't know they're wet. Speaker 4: Exactly. And so I think that's where [00:16:00] people get really uncomfortable about how divisive religion is. Speaker 4: But they were men of their time coming up with these ideas, with their understanding of the spiritual, with the understanding. They [00:16:10] brought the idea that that wouldn't somehow get into their ideas is, like you said, you're missing the point. Speaker 5: Yeah. It is missing the point. It's importing, it's importing something that, that doesn't come from there.[00:16:20] Speaker 5: But, uh, what I was getting at, what got me on that point is that reason and following that rationality is a divine quality to them it's, it's [00:16:30] holy. It is a, the spirit of the rational universe in here, in a human being and the individual human is a microcosm of [00:16:40] that maximal universe is the representation of it. Speaker 5: And so with that comes a moral obligation to exercise reason, to use reason and, and think [00:16:50] rationally. For instance, the, the idea that it's virtuous for me to try to believe something that, you know, I rationally don't believe. That, that doesn't make any sense. You should [00:17:00] exercise your reason, and you should, you should be truthful with yourself. Speaker 5: And so that, that, that concept, that's a, that's an example of rationality being virtuous. [00:17:10] Um, Speaker 4: is it, is it reasonable to say rationality is about maintaining curiosity? Speaker 5: I, Speaker 4: I Speaker 5: would say that that is a, I wouldn't say rationality is about that. I would [00:17:20] say that that is a function of rationality. Like I, I would say that Speaker 4: you, so it's the egg chicken is the curiosity. Speaker 5: Yeah. And a humility, an intellectual humility [00:17:30] in light of the vastness of the universe. If you take, if your denominator is infinity, if you take known over unknown, and your denominator is [00:17:40] infinity, we all approach zero in terms of what we know. And recognizing that speck that, uh, within the, the vastness of the universe of what current human knowledge represents, [00:17:50] puts you in a, in a, in a realm of, of intellectual humility where you can say, man, I, I really know nothing. Speaker 5: And that hearkens back to Socrates, you know, and he was [00:18:00] cited as the, no one is wiser than this guy. And he's the one who's going around saying, I know, you know, I don't know anything I, I, but at least I know that. Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the. For the [00:18:10] emotional processing on that end of things, a lot of guys that come in, American men were not really raised with an emotional vocabulary, an understanding of what is happening with our emotional self.[00:18:20] Speaker 4: And so by getting guys curious and giving them language to leverage their rationality to better use and understand their emotions, to [00:18:30] understand that where these polls are coming from and why their mind might all of a sudden start making up stories to justify whatever. Speaker 5: Yeah. Speaker 4: That, that curiosity [00:18:40] becomes really key. Speaker 4: And the the best frame I've found for it is that they're happening all at once, right? Like we don't, we don't exist like a clock where one thing [00:18:50] spins and then the other thing spins. Like our emotions and our rationality are always happening at the same time. Yeah. It's just, which one are you catching at any given point if you're paying attention. Speaker 5: Yeah. Which one's [00:19:00] driving behavior Speaker 4: and which one you're looking at. Right. It's really hard to not look at the words and language that your thoughts are using and coming up with a [00:19:10] story and feel that tightness in your chest that lets you know that that person made you angry. Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree with that. I think an, an an important thing on the, on the topic of rationality [00:19:20] to, to recognize that really separates the stoics out from how I think that they're often misinterpreted is a, a vital caveat is. Speaker 5: That [00:19:30] rationality will drive you to become more virtuous. If you are, if you, as you become wiser, as the human being becomes wiser, they will become more virtuous. And that virtue [00:19:40] is captured in the qualities of, of wisdom, courage, self-control, and justice. And so that kind of categorically eliminates the idea that I'm gonna become [00:19:50] this Machiavellian bastard by being more rational. Speaker 5: I'm just gonna find ways to be more cold and calculating and take advantage of people and get a, a accrue [00:20:00] wealth and fame and power and all that through all these, all these terrible means By becoming more rational. I'll come to see that all those things are petty trinkets, you know, or, [00:20:10] or they're, they're essentially value valueless to me in comparison to what really matters and what's really valuable. Speaker 5: And I think that that is a, uh. That was [00:20:20] a huge turning point for me growing up, kind of in my twenties when I, I started to explore stoicism. Before that, there was this huge cognitive dissonance in who I wanted to be. [00:20:30] On the one hand, I wanted to be high achieving, high performance I want to do and achieve all these awesome things and just be this awesome high ranking, whatever. Speaker 5: And [00:20:40] then over here, on the other hand, I wanna be a family man, and I wanna be a good person and I wanna be all those things that I just kind of gathered from growing up in a good family that, [00:20:50] uh, make a good person. And I saw those things as being conflicting. And, but what brought them into alignment really is the recognizing that the, the material [00:21:00] aspects of success and the, the trivial things or things that, you know, I now think are trivial are, are in fact trivial. Speaker 5: They're, they're nuts and figs that children [00:21:10] scramble after. Speaker 4: Well, it's, it's. It's interesting 'cause just the way that the podcasting works, I recorded a solo episode that's actually gonna release right after this one where I talk about masculine traits and status seeking is [00:21:20] one of 'em, and all of the masculine traits can go toxic. Speaker 4: But the way to make sure that they're not is, let's say that you're someone that values the trappings of success [00:21:30] because you need to be seen as successful to do the things that are in alignment with your values. Yeah. That's how you do that. Like if it's important for you to be dressed a certain way, looking like you have the [00:21:40] things you have for people to listen, for you to achieve your goals, that's very different than chasing those things because you want those things. Speaker 5: Yeah, they can, I mean, they can be instrumental, you [00:21:50] Speaker 4: know? Yeah, they can. But there are things at the end of the day, right? It's all about how we use them, not letting them use us. Speaker 5: Yeah. And they're, they're not, they're importantly, they're not you and [00:22:00] Yeah, and I mean, we, we definitely, I definitely see this in the military. Speaker 5: Uh, and I, I've experienced this where you, you think your rank is you, and when you think your, your office is, is you. That can be, [00:22:10] that can evaporate at any moment. Speaker 6: And yeah. Speaker 5: And due to circumstances completely outside of my power and outside of me having done anything right or wrong, and my entire identity can be wrapped up [00:22:20] in this job. Speaker 5: And then tomorrow I can be medically disqualified. And now where am I? Speaker 4: Well, I got, I got very lucky. One of my, one of my best commanders is now General Downs [00:22:30] Uhhuh. Uh, and I knew I served under him back when he was a little oh five, and he said something that really helped me avoid that. And it was [00:22:40] mostly about families. Speaker 4: He was like, the military is gonna take care of you while you're here. At some point you won't be here. Make sure you like who's leaving. Speaker 5: That's a really good point. That's an important one. And, [00:22:50] and that's, that's kind of where, where I'm at. Mm-hmm. You know, and, uh, recognizing Epictetus, my, my favorite, uh, stoic [00:23:00] philosopher said that people who misunderstand these trappings of status and as, as their identity are, are like [00:23:10] stage actors who begin to think that their costumes and their high boots are their very selves. Speaker 5: And it's a point of confusion and, and it's, it's a ridiculous one. [00:23:20] How ridiculous to actually think that that's what you are. Speaker 4: Yeah, I, it's always interesting 'cause there's, for, for me, I always try to imagine the balance of things, right? So I'm sure [00:23:30] you're really proud of the rank you achieved. I'm, I'm proud of that. Speaker 4: I made it to staff Sergeant when I did, and I'm exceedingly proud of my, like, license as a clinician. But that can go away in an instant, [00:23:40] right? Like, all it takes is me making one mistake at going to a board, and then my, my license is gone. And so. Now no one can take away all the work you did to get there. Speaker 4: Right. Or [00:23:50] the knowledge that I've gotten from like, doing all the things that I've done for it. But, uh, the societal roles that come from the ranks and position you've achieved. Speaker 5: [00:24:00] Yeah, Speaker 4: I, I think there's a, for me, I'm just trying to like soften a little bit of what you say because I, I wanna acknowledge how important the roles we hold are to men in particular, [00:24:10] and how as long as you're grounded in who you are and the role you hold, instead of letting the role you hold, become who you are. Speaker 5: So [00:24:20] the Epictetus specifically deals with this very well, the concept of, of roles and how they balance out. Did you happen to get to my fourth chapter? I'm just, I'm just, I'm just [00:24:30] curious a little bit. A little bit, or did you fall asleep before that? So your book is very good. It's just very dense. Yeah. I don't pretend that it's not, [00:24:40] there are better introductory works if, if, if you, if you're not familiar with stoicism. Speaker 5: So the concept of role ethics is, uh, deeply embedded in, in [00:24:50] stoicism, but it's kind of, it's kind of below the surface a little bit. It's not really, you don't really get it in the popular takes, but the stoics are very intense about recognizing what [00:25:00] roles we fulfill, identifying it and rec recognizing and identifying and fulfilling whatever obligations are attendant to those roles. Speaker 5: But. There is a hierarchy [00:25:10] and there are are specific roles, and then there's the fundamental role. The specific roles are things like father, [00:25:20] brother, husband, or in my case, naval officer or a shoe maker, whatever you, you can choose some of them like a profession and some of them choose you like family members [00:25:30] and things like that, but either way, you have this role and with it comes certain obligations, but. Speaker 5: There is also above all of those, there is the [00:25:40] fundamental role of a rational human being. And if any of those specific roles conflict with the fundamental role, then something is screwed up. [00:25:50] Okay. So either you are misunderstanding the obligations attendant to that role, to that specific role, or that role is illegitimate. Speaker 5: So [00:26:00] like if, if my role is to be the guy that calls little old ladies and cons them out of, out of their life insurance, that's probably a screwed up job. And I, I should probably get another one. [00:26:10] You know? So the, the point is that there's no villain roles that are legitimate, ideally. All the role, what all the roles that we fulfill [00:26:20] should be compatible and in fact should reinforce one another. Speaker 5: That is to say that fulfilling my various specific roles should be a virtuous thing to do. [00:26:30] Mm-hmm. And should in here virtue should, in here being wise, courageous, just, and self-controlled, in order to fulfill those roles, that hierarchy really sorts [00:26:40] out a lot of problems. Uh, a good example is before I'd ever discovered the stoics, my dad told me, Hey, if I ever, whenever I come into a conflict [00:26:50] with, with what is, uh, doing my job, being a good teacher, he's a teacher, or being a good man, I, I go with being a good man, and the rest [00:27:00] will sort itself out. Speaker 5: And that has served me so well. And what I've discovered as being an officer, you know, I've, I've encountered situations where I think I'm conflicted. A good [00:27:10] officer would do this and a good man would do this other thing. Well, shoot, I'm gonna be a good man, and I'll let the rest sort it out itself out. Speaker 5: And then I would later discover that, you know what, the best [00:27:20] officers do that. And that was the right move. And, uh, that basically maps onto the epic tein concept of role ethics and the way that the [00:27:30] stoics basically figured it out logically or, or mapped it out logically. Yeah. Speaker 4: Well, one, I just love the, the overlap on a core. Speaker 4: Uh, a lot of guys, when they come into therapy, [00:27:40] a lot of what's happened is they've gotten wrapped around a role to the detriment and destruction of the others. And so [00:27:50] you see, I see this a lot with dads that are, you know, they're the breadwinner. They're the person who's chasing down their, their career, and then all of a sudden their kid's 13 and their kid hates them and they're very [00:28:00] confused. Speaker 4: Yeah. They're like, I, the kid has everything. I, I've literally, he has no wants. I've done everything for him. Why does he hate me? 'cause he doesn't know you. Yeah. You've been gone. [00:28:10] And I think that's a good life is having to pick between good things. Right? Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree. That's, that's a good problem to have. Speaker 5: Right. Speaker 4: But a, [00:28:20] a poorly aimed life is not recognizing you're making the choices and balancing your choices. Speaker 5: Yeah. Speaker 4: Not, not at least calling it out. Yeah. Well, and [00:28:30] understanding that if you've got kids, you can't burn your kid's entire childhood on your career and expect to be connected to your kid. Yeah. It's just not gonna happen. Speaker 4: So [00:28:40] I, I love the, the roles ethics. I hadn't heard that. Like, I, I remember coming across it in your book, but to be honest, I didn't understand it very well. So this was really nice. [00:28:50] Speaker 5: Yeah. It's one of those things that's buried in the philosophy and again, you, you won't really find much talk about that on the, on, on the blogs. Speaker 5: 'cause people aren't looking for, how do I be a good [00:29:00] man? They're, they're looking for how do I use stoicism to be effective, you know? Be effective and, and remain, remain cool under pressure and all that. But kind of the point that I [00:29:10] make is why do you want to remain cool under pressure? Why do you want to be disciplined? Speaker 5: It's because somewhere in your head you've got it. You've got the idea that that's what you're supposed to be and it's 'cause it [00:29:20] is. You are supposed to be disciplined. You're not necessarily necessarily supposed to apply that discipline to take advantage of someone or be a bastard in some way. But you are supposed to [00:29:30] be brave. Speaker 5: You are supposed to be disciplined and and self-control. All those things are what an ideal man would be. Speaker 4: Well, and I think it's that self-control piece that so many guys get mixed up when they get into these things as they think [00:29:40] that a man controls. I'm the king of my castle. I am. I'm in control of the world around me. Speaker 4: And you literally cannot do that. Like, all you can do is manage yourself, manage [00:29:50] your actions, and cruise through life as well as possible. Knowing that, and I think that's where I hear you're lucky if you can do that, right? That's a hard thing to do. Well, [00:30:00] if you, if you nail it more times than not, you're doing really well. Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think that's where like, like we were, like you're talking about the blogs and the way that Stoicism gets misused is [00:30:10] this idea of like, I'm going to be in control. Yeah. And I'm going to leverage this to be in control of things. And nothing good happens in that framework. Leadership is in [00:30:20] control. Speaker 4: Our second episode, I had my, uh, leadership instructor from my sergeant's course. Come on. Uhhuh. And, and Cool. We've, we've stayed pretty close. And the whole episode was basically [00:30:30] us lamenting that when people think of military leadership from outside of the military, they think everybody's doing it like a drill instructor instead of what the best military leaders are, [00:30:40] which you just said are good people doing hard things. Speaker 5: Yeah. And if and if you're not being a good person, you're gonna screw it [00:30:50] up every time. Yeah. And, and I, I think that again, the, the point is, is being a good person is pretty badass once you know what it is. And that, [00:31:00] that's one of the points that I got that talking about the intersection of rationality and, and virtue ethics is, and kind of brought it into alignment is. Speaker 5: Thinking, I, I wanna be all [00:31:10] these, all these awesome and high performing things. That really is what, what I was thinking is, I, I wanna manifest this being a badass thing, but why do I want that? Why do [00:31:20] young military guys wanna be fearless and formidable and, and unstoppable and all these things? Well, that's because, you know, somewhere in their head that's, that's what they think a, a man should be, a man [00:31:30] should be brave, and a man should stand his ground whenever That's right. Speaker 5: Whenever he's standing on Right. And whenever he's correct. [00:31:40] For Speaker 4: me, that was the figuring out the distinction between fearless and brave. If you're fearless, you're probably not very bright. If you're brave, you're usually [00:31:50] afraid while you're doing the hard thing. Yeah. Speaker 5: Well, you can really only be brave if there's fear to overcome. Speaker 4: Yeah. No one likes that. And if, and if you're totally Speaker 5: fearless, you probably don't understand your situation. Yeah. It's not, it's not good. [00:32:00] It's not good. Yeah. Speaker 4: Well, and I think that kinda leads to the, this question, you know, I was trying to figure out how to frame some of these things, and I, I think we've kind of answered this question, [00:32:10] but I wanna make sure I've got given you space for all your thoughts on it. Speaker 4: Yeah. And how stoicism got turned into emotional armor instead of ethical armor. Where the [00:32:20] common vernacular for stoicism is emotional containment, emotional discipline, instead of what the philosophy. Pushes for, which is how to be a good person, [00:32:30] how to go through the world and protect your values and your ethics. Speaker 5: I wanna Speaker 4: be Speaker 5: a badass. That emotional armor idea, that sounds pretty badass. So like, yeah, [00:32:40] it sells. That's what gets the clicks kind of level two is realizing that being able to control yourself and being able to recognize [00:32:50] and, and, and be rational and in light of whatever emotions you're experiencing and to stop ruminating on stupid stuff and, and think about better stuff. Speaker 5: All [00:33:00] those things are part of rationality. All those things that you want, that, that, that end up manifesting and becoming misrepresented as ice cold, emotional control [00:33:10] that is ultimately derivative of. Virtue and, and, and discipline self-control, that is what virtue leads to done. Right? [00:33:20] Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it's a, it's a big sticking point for a lot of the clinicians I train when we talk about working with guys, is there's this idea of person-centered [00:33:30] therapy where if you find your perfect self, you find perfect love and perfect acceptance, and that's a really, really [00:33:40] powerful perfection to aim for. Speaker 4: Right? But I don't think that's the way most men need to come at their problems because it [00:33:50] doesn't, it's, it's not of service. Generally speaking. What I always go for is the idea that. We need our armor right? As, as a man in the world, you need to be able to [00:34:00] move through it. And you need to be able to deal with the things that come at you in hard ways. Speaker 4: But you also need space to take off the armor. You need people around you [00:34:10] and people. You do it for people that help you be virtuous, people that help you be the man you wanna be and feel held while you heal from whatever trials and tribulations you go through on the [00:34:20] way, instead of this idea that if we just get to this perfect moral and accepting self, everything lines up in my experience, doesn't, it [00:34:30] goes better the closer you are to it. Speaker 4: But I've been perfect in moments. I certainly have not been perfect in minutes. Speaker 5: No, [00:34:40] well, it's a constant state of like any, any kind of morality is gonna be a constant state of self-correction. Just like any other continuous effort, [00:34:50] perfection is unreachable and, and like, that's why it's called perfection, but recognizing that means that, that it's, it, it's just like mastering a skill or [00:35:00] getting a team to be, to, to be high performing. Speaker 5: If we're not getting better, we're getting worse. And so the, the, the continuous striving to, to improve oneself, but [00:35:10] an important part of a lot of what you're, what you're talking about there, what, what you said was about others and how others. Contribute to that and how [00:35:20] we contribute to that for others, no man is an island and, and we're, we're meant for each other. Speaker 5: And so trying to, I I, I think it's the wrong approach to [00:35:30] say like, well, I'm gonna figure out my fir myself first, and then I'm gonna come outta my cave and, and, and be a part of, uh, uh, everything else. Homie me. You're, you're never gonna fig figure out [00:35:40] yourself. Interacting with others is part of figuring yourself out. Speaker 5: That's part of being a human and finding your place. But it's like we, we, we exist in a context and it's a social context and, and [00:35:50] Speaker 4: me and a buddy were laughing about that. We were on a walk with our dogs and talking about getting back to the gym after injuries and, uh, the, the conversations [00:36:00] always, well, I need to go get some cardio in so that I can do the other workouts before I go back to the gym. Speaker 4: And we both noted that that's how guys never make it to the gym. [00:36:10] That's an excuse. Well, it's, it's a barrier and it's an arbitrary barrier. Right? Rather than going to the gym to do the thing, to get to the type of workout you [00:36:20] want instead of being worried about how you are seen at the gym when you show up means you're unlikely to go. Speaker 4: Same thing with what I see those guys that isolate trying to figure [00:36:30] themselves out, trying to get, like, I wanna be as strong as disciplined and effective as I can before I go and engage. Socially they're doing the same thing. Speaker 5: Yeah. Speaker 4: They're [00:36:40] just like, until I get this, I won't be social. But you don't get to the social without just showing up. Speaker 5: I think that a lot of people find, and, and, and you're more read in this stuff [00:36:50] than I am in psychology things, but I think a lot of people really manifest whenever they find purpose. Mm-hmm. And it's usually gonna be in a social [00:37:00] context. And I, I find, I think that they find that they perform better and kind of all the capacities that matter, whether that's in wisdom or that's in their physical [00:37:10] self and getting their act together in all these different ways is more natural. Speaker 5: Whenever there's a, a purpose that they're contributing to somehow, and it's, it's almost [00:37:20] always gonna be in a social context. It's certainly went, worked that way for me. Speaker 4: Well, and that's, that's a big part of a lot of different modalities of therapy is identifying your values [00:37:30] to then be able to find your purposes. Speaker 4: And I, I think that's where so many guys feel so lost is they don't have their virtues dialed in. [00:37:40] They don't know. What it is that they wanna frame their world around. And there's that balance, right? We get our values from the people that raised us by the communities we're [00:37:50] in, but we also shape our communities and the people we're around by holding our values. Speaker 7: Yeah. Speaker 4: And it's this entire like, circular thing where they kind of need to be [00:38:00] washed and the people that you're of service to or they get really brittle. Yeah. One sideways blow. Yeah. I can, I can, I can imagine that and see how Speaker 5: that would happen. Speaker 4: Well, I think that's the, [00:38:10] that's what's happening with the popular versions of stoicism, right? Speaker 4: Is the, the emotional armor. The very hardened man is brittle. Speaker 7: Yeah. Speaker 4: He can [00:38:20] get through a lot. He can truck through so many things, but the minute somebody taps that armor in the wrong place, he shatters. Speaker 5: Well, the, the brittleness is a good analogy there, and I'm an [00:38:30] engineering nerd, so it brings me back to my material science classes. Speaker 5: But the, I, I think a lot of that also is just false expectations. You know, they've been [00:38:40] sold a bill of goods that I'm gonna read Marcus Aurelius, and suddenly I'm gonna be this stockdale like hardass. And, uh, it turns out that I'm still a soft [00:38:50] puppy inside, and I'm still sad when I get dumped and I'm still craving all these silly things and, and it turns out I'm a human being. Speaker 5: You know, woe was me. Speaker 4: Well, weren't there. I'm [00:39:00] trying to remember. It's been a long time since I've read it, but weren't there quite a few times where Marcus really has talked about his puppy nature? I don't like, [00:39:10] he wouldn't have framed it that way, but the, like, the softness of his social. Uh, needs his compassion for people, the frustrations, the anger and things he had to put down, and how he put 'em down. Speaker 4: He, Speaker 5: he's [00:39:20] constantly lamenting his limitations and what, what the meditations are. And just, just for the audience, for anyone who's not familiar with stoicism and wants to become familiar with [00:39:30] stoicism, I actually don't recommend Marcus Aurelius is an entry point because some people are like, oh, wow, this is really wise. Speaker 5: And then some, some people are like, wow, this is crap. As an entry point. I [00:39:40] think that Donald Robertson's book, how to Think Like a Stoic Emperor is a good, a good spot if you're just not familiar with this stuff at all. Um, that's a good stoic point. Yeah, it's a good [00:39:50] kind of survey and, and, and, and get, you, get you acquainted with the territory and where you're at, but just like if you just pick up meditations, a lot of people are like, what is this? Speaker 5: You know? [00:40:00] But yeah, he's, he, he does. To answer your question. Yeah, he does, he does lament his, his limitations constantly, because that's what he's doing. He's identifying, it's a psychological practice of [00:40:10] identifying where you've gone wrong and calling it out and, you know, writing forces you to engage with things in a way that just thinking about it doesn't. Speaker 4: Well, I, I love the, the [00:40:20] recommendation on don't start with the deep thoughts of the founder of anything almost. You know, like if you're looking at mental health, getting into Freud's writings. That's a lot. [00:40:30] Yeah. And it doesn't like, without some modern context, it gets really weird, really quick. Yeah. And so there's better, there's better books to start with, just like you're talking about. Speaker 4: Yeah. I like if, [00:40:40] uh, I think you should talk to someone is a great, like, I don't know anything about mental health. It's a, it's a great little way in and then if you're into it right, then get into some of the [00:40:50] deeper writings. But I like that acknowledgement that this thing that every guy who wants to be learned gets handed. Speaker 4: Like, I don't know anybody who [00:41:00] values Western intellect, who hasn't been handed his memoirs as like the way to get this. And it, Speaker 5: it's not honestly like if I were to hand somebody something [00:41:10] written like I were limited and couldn't give someone a modern book and had to give them an ancient, uh, work of stoicism. Speaker 5: The meditations would be the last one I would give you. There are three [00:41:20] key Roman stoic philosophers, so it just, here's just, just basic 30 seconds on on this. The stoics, the original STOs were Greeks. We really barely have any sources [00:41:30] from the Greeks. What we have are hundreds of years after the Greeks. Speaker 5: We had. The Romans stoicism blew up in Rome, kind of like it's blown up here, uh, in, [00:41:40] in ancient Rome. And you have three, uh, key Romans who, who wrote, or a lot was written of what they said. One of them is this guy named Seneca, who was a, you know, a [00:41:50] rich, powerful, uh, thinker who was just a beautiful writer and playwright and all that. Speaker 5: And he just wrote tons of stuff. His stuff to me is the best like, entry point of 'cause. It's just, [00:42:00] it's just nice to read and it's very thoughtful and you can open it to any page and be like, damn, he's talking to me. You know? Uh, but he, he wrote all these letters. Uh, the moral [00:42:10] epistles of Sine Seneca are just really good entry point, and there's a lot of really good wisdom in there. Speaker 5: Epictetus came after Seneca Epictetus is, is the man, he's [00:42:20] like the key point, and he's, he's kind of the most profound of the three thinkers there. His basically, he didn't write anything, but all of his, his lectures were recorded [00:42:30] by somebody, and so the discourses of Epictetus are, are phenomenal. But, uh, they're kind of, he's kind of a asshole. Speaker 5: He's kind of a drill sergeant and he's [00:42:40] fun to read. Once you kind of get to know him, he's funny, but a lot of people were like, man, this guy's a jerk. You know, he's just, he's expecting too much. And then Marcus Aurelius is reading. [00:42:50] He had Epictetus discourses and all of, and his journals that we have are him trying to, trying to live up to Epictetus Standard.[00:43:00] Speaker 5: So it, you know, I would read Epictetus before I read Marcus Aurelius, but the, you know, Epictetus wasn't in Gladiator, so you've got that. Speaker 4: Well, and Gladiator is one of the [00:43:10] best films ever. The Who doesn't love Russell Crowe? Just being hard. Right. Um, I. I didn't know that. [00:43:20] And, and so I, I really, I like a lot of the stoic tools and, and I like a lot of the frames from kind of a high, higher view, missing a lot. Speaker 4: And [00:43:30] so it sounds like I, I've got some reading to do, which is gonna be fun now that I've got a little bit of aim. So thank you for that. Speaker 5: Yeah. So Donald Robertson is a, is a psychotherapist [00:43:40] and he writes a lot about the, or, you know, the connection between cognitive behavioral therapy and stoicism. And that's kind of how he got into the stoics was [00:43:50] from there. Speaker 5: But the basic idea, and I'm, I'm gonna butcher it, but the, the basic idea is that cognitive behavioral therapy came, was developed effectively in the [00:44:00] 1950s, but the. Guys that developed it in rational emotive behavioral therapy were deeply read in the stoics, and they basically [00:44:10] adapted a lot of the practices of the stoics into clinical practices. Speaker 5: And it's not to say that cognitive behavioral therapists are just doing [00:44:20] stoicism, it's more like, uh, this is the seed that it grew from. Yeah. And it, it's kind of like the difference between the ancient humans figured out that [00:44:30] you could cure a headache by chewing on the bark of a willow tree. They had no idea why. Speaker 5: Or, you know, we understood wine making long before we understood what fermentation was doing, [00:44:40] what was happening, or like a, you know, microbiology. But it worked and they figured it out. And, and then now we know that the active ingredient of the bark of a [00:44:50] willow tree is salicylic acid, which you can synthesize as aspirin. Speaker 5: And, and so that's kind of like the, the, the way that analogizes, like, so that the way that ancient, you know, what [00:45:00] therapists consider constructive practices are just the way stoics thought you should think about things. And uh, and that's part of the reason why a lot of [00:45:10] people find it very therapeutic and very, uh, very helpful. Speaker 5: Well, and if you read Beck, it's, Speaker 4: uh, Beck's, the guy who founded the, the theory and he, it reads like a lot of the stoic stuff. [00:45:20] Well, it makes perfect sense. I mean, it's, it's about how to bring some rationality into your behavior. It makes a lot of sense. And I think that the modern use of mindfulness [00:45:30] in clinical practice is very similar to how the Eastern values and philosophies bring forward mindfulness. Speaker 4: It's just a functional distillation as [00:45:40] opposed to a deeper spiritual journey with it. Yeah, and I think both are valid. Just, you know, know what you're getting and where you're getting it. Don't, don't conflate the two. Speaker 5: Yeah. [00:45:50] And the, the STOs had a mindfulness practice as well. It's not a, it's not as central as, as like Zen Buddhists or something like that. Speaker 5: And their, their word for it was prosay or, or, or attention. [00:46:00] But Speaker 6: yeah, Speaker 5: the, the idea of paying attention to what I'm thinking in the moment was, was kind of a, an active mindfulness. But [00:46:10] the journaling piece that Marcus Aurelius doing is, is kind of a kind of meditation. It's an active, you know, engagement with, with what I'm thinking and feeling and what I've been [00:46:20] doing. Speaker 5: And so there's a mindfulness aspect that the STOs came to as well, just from a slightly different angle. Speaker 4: Yeah. What's that Self-awareness, right? That that's all it really means at its base [00:46:30] level. So I wanna be respectful of your time. I know the kids are waiting for dinner, so, Speaker 5: uh, and we can, we can do more, like if you wanna do this again later, like, [00:46:40] I, I, I just enjoy talking about this stuff, so Speaker 4: I appreciate it. Speaker 4: Uh, the kind of two questions that I, I kinda want to end on as far as the, the stoic lessons, as [00:46:50] opposed to getting to know you a little bit, are it, you know, you've talked a lot about the blogosphere and all the different ways that stoicism use is used to develop out effectiveness. [00:47:00] If there was one stoic tool that you wish the blogosphere would do better and get in front of more people. Speaker 4: Which one would it be? Speaker 5: I don't know if I wanna call it a [00:47:10] tool or a practice so much as a principle, but I think it is a very valuable principle, and it's the appeal to coherence as, as [00:47:20] just what, you know, eliminating cognitive dissonance and eliminating dissonance and, and thought and, and I think it's very well captured in Cicero.[00:47:30] Speaker 5: Cicero is actually, he's a Roman, he's a very, very important Roman political philosopher. Very important to, uh, to any kind of political theory today. But he also [00:47:40] had a lot of important thing, moral things to say, and he, he was very deeply into the stoics, even though he did not claim to be a stoic, but he was, A lot of his philosophy is effectively stoic.[00:47:50] Speaker 5: Cicero adapted something that Socrates said. Socrates said that for something, you know, what is good answer? Trying to answer the que in a [00:48:00] very Socrates style of just, you know, he would always ask these questions that you're like, how are you even asking that? He would, you know, what is the meaning of good for, for Socrates? Speaker 5: He'd say, for something to be good, it has [00:48:10] to be both honorable and useful. So hundreds of years later, Cicero says, like Socrates said, something good needs to be honorable and useful. But we [00:48:20] can, we can intuit from that, that what is honorable is also useful and the converse is true, that what is not honorable. Speaker 5: Is not [00:48:30] useful. And that is a very good test. Basically the idea is if I am going to get ahead in life in some way, I'm gonna get something by some [00:48:40] dishonorable act, then whatever I'm getting out of that is not gonna be useful in the long run. I'm biting myself in that ass. And that is true. Whether I'm trying to run a business, trying to run an organization, uh, [00:48:50] trying to run myself, my life, what is honorable is inherently useful and what is not honorable is inherently unuseful or [00:49:00] counterproductive in some way. Speaker 5: It is going to, if you zoom out far enough, I'm gonna regret that dishonorable act. So I think that that is a very good way of, [00:49:10] of thinking about things and sorting out, sorting out reality. Essentially Speaker 4: it's, it's the exact opposite and counter argument to the ends justify the means [00:49:20] where it is exactly Speaker 5: the counter to that. Speaker 5: Yes, if Speaker 4: you do not feel good about how you got somewhere, you are not going to enjoy being there. There's that whatever, whatever the Speaker 5: end [00:49:30] is, is not what you actually want. It's not actually worth Speaker 4: it. Every time, uh, so many guys come in for clinical work and that that dissident is exactly where [00:49:40] their clinical work goes, is they've got an idea from when they were young about what they needed to do to be safe, happy, and connected, and they just ignored every other aspect on the way there, [00:49:50] get it, and then are none of those things. Speaker 4: Yeah. Because of all the things that had to be sacrificed to get there. And so I think that's a beautiful thing to bring forward. So [00:50:00] your book is incredibly academic and a very good deep dive into stoicism for those who are already educated on it. You've given us some primer books to get into. [00:50:10] If people are looking for your work, where's the best place for them to find it? Speaker 5: So I have a, a website. So just basically what I write about for your, not all of your readers are [00:50:20] military or veterans, but I, I am active military, so most of the stuff that I'm writing is, is somehow oriented to, to that, the military. But if you are in the military or [00:50:30] adjacent to it, you, you, you might find interest in it. Speaker 5: I have a website, william c spears.com and you know, there's articles and essays and stuff. I hang there and it's also just kind of [00:50:40] a funnel to, to the book. My book is called Stoicism as a Warrior Philosophy, and it is releasing here in a couple weeks. I'm excited for people to get [00:50:50] to see it. I, it's chew. Speaker 5: It's true, Speaker 4: but it's Speaker 5: good. It was, it, it was basically me answering the question of like, uh, you know, okay, how [00:51:00] do I approach stoicism from a military perspective? And like, let's follow this rabbit hole all the way down to the bottom and see what the reference actually says, because that's kind of a, I'm a [00:51:10] submarine officer and that's how submarines look at things and we say, what does the book actually say? Speaker 5: Your opinion's gonna be fascinating after you, after you bring me the tech manual. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm like, [00:51:20] okay, well let's see what the tech manual says about stoicism and, and, uh, specifically with relevance to, to military service. But I would say if you, if you've read Donald Robertson or [00:51:30] something, some of the blogs and you say, okay, I got it. Speaker 5: I want to get deeper, then that, that's probably someone who, who this book would be appropriate for. That's great. Speaker 4: I, [00:51:40] I do like an author coming on and saying, this is who the book is for. It's not for everybody. And I think that's a much more, that's a much better way [00:51:50] to have people not be disappointed by the experience of what they're reading. Speaker 4: And the acceptance of it is just, I mean, that's how we expand human knowledge, right? We, we've gotta start with the basics, but as you go further where [00:52:00] things get interesting for what you're into, yeah. It gets chewy. Speaker 5: Yeah. And, and I mean, I, what I ultimately want is for, for people to find stuff that's that's useful and [00:52:10] helpful for them. Speaker 5: Like, here, here's a hint for you. Authors don't make any money hundred percent Speaker 6: on selling books. Hundred percent. Speaker 4: You know, Speaker 5: so it's, it's about getting ideas out there. Speaker 4: So I'm [00:52:20] gonna be interested to hear how the personal questions, uh, go for you, because I just, from your writing and the, the preface in the book and talking about your father and what a good man is, I [00:52:30] imagine a lot of your lessons in masculinity are gonna be intrinsically tied to the frame of stoicism as that's been such a big part of your life. Speaker 4: Yeah. And to kinda get that going, [00:52:40] what's a lesson that you learned about manhood before you were 12 that's remained true today? Speaker 5: Well, ob observing my father, I, you know, [00:52:50] I came to the conclusion early on that whatever else a man does his job. And if you, you accept that as kind of a, an anchor point. You say a man does his [00:53:00] job and then you realize, well, what is his job? Speaker 5: That's the point you can figure out. You can spend your whole life us stewing on that and trying to figure out what your job actually [00:53:10] is, but you better damn well do it. And, uh, and that is, that I think has been always true. And, uh, and that, that really [00:53:20] ties into the role ethics. Yeah. Is, uh, and, and the role, the role ethics piece of it helps a lot with that. Speaker 4: Yeah. The acceptance of a, a man's job is multifaceted. [00:53:30] Oh yeah. Speaker 5: It's not ever a man's gonna have a lot of jobs, Speaker 4: at least if he's living a good life. Right. Like we talked about before, it's that I've got too many good [00:53:40] things and hard things to pick from. Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. And I really like the, the frame of it as the men do the job. Speaker 4: Like, because I, I imagine our fathers are of, of an age, [00:53:50] and that was also within my father and how he explained things. Yeah. What's a time that pursuit of your manhood hurt you? Speaker 5: Well as all [00:54:00] times, whenever I'd misunderstood what it meant when I was a young college guy, I really thought that it was important to hook up with girls at [00:54:10] parties and stuff like that. Speaker 5: And thankfully I wasn't very good at that, but there was a lot of, there was a lot of frustration that came from not being very good at [00:54:20] that. Um, you know, I'm just really glad that that wasn't a big part of my experience, but at the time I really felt like I was missing out on a lot and, and that I was just [00:54:30] not fulfilling. Speaker 5: I was not being the cool guy that cool guys are supposed to be or whatever, which that was just really foolish. And now I'm very happily married [00:54:40] and, uh, you know, my wife and kids are upstairs, you know, waiting on, on me to come up so we can Speaker 6: eat, Speaker 5: you know, but, but it's, I, I have a very wonderful [00:54:50] life because I was wrong and I, and I, and. Speaker 5: And, uh, it turned out that I was not good at things that I didn't need to be good at. And on a lighter note, uh, I spent a [00:55:00] lot of time trying to, trying to play golf and trying to figure out why everyone else enjoys it when I just hate it because golf, golf is a frustrating game that just sucks. [00:55:10] Speaker 6: I just don't like it. Speaker 6: And then eventually I reached an age and said, you know what? I'm not gonna, I don't like this. I'm not gonna do this. I don't have to do it anymore. Speaker 4: Yeah. I Speaker 6: don't, I don't have to do this. Speaker 4: Yeah. That, that [00:55:20] has come up with a lot of guys when they're younger, and the idea that a man pursues women and is successful with women can be incredibly painful for a lot of guys [00:55:30] and figure out how Yeah. Speaker 4: It's like this measure Speaker 5: of, of, of worth or something like, come on. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a thing you can do. How you do [00:55:40] it matters. Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 4: And you know, we always like to go out on a high note, what's a time where your masculinity empowered you? Speaker 5: I, I think that. [00:55:50] Uh, nothing has made me ever feel more masculine than being a father. Speaker 5: And, uh, whenever I can say, you know, anytime [00:56:00] that I can say, man, I just handled that well, that was some good, good dad stuff there. And just, just hanging out with my kids and just being around them. I don't have a [00:56:10] specific anecdote, uh, for you there, but I, I will say the role of being a father is far and above, you know, my most important [00:56:20] and rewarding. Speaker 5: Role. And I, and I have some important and, and and rewarding roles, you know, and I have some important jobs and none of them are even close to being [00:56:30] a father because those other jobs I will be replaced in a microsecond if, uh, if, if I don't show up. But if I don't show up to being a father, like no one, no one [00:56:40] else is, then there's no calvary coming, you know? Speaker 5: And so it is far and above my most important job, but, but also like, it's the, it's the, the only thing that's gonna matter [00:56:50] in the, in the long run. 'cause you know, at some, some day I'm gonna be worm food and someday soon, and, and they're, they're what's gonna be left to me. Uh, so I think Speaker 4: that really lines up with how you've [00:57:00] described your father being so key into the man you are and the frame of your masculinity being so tied to his lessons for you, passing them onto the next generation. Speaker 4: It's gotta be a wonderful, powerful [00:57:10] thing for you. Speaker 5: Yeah. I, I, and I only hope that I do, and there's, there's a lot of, you know, with kids, there's, there's, this isn't a dad podcast, but gosh, there's, there's a lot of [00:57:20] powerlessness and, and recognizing that, man, I have no control over what this person becomes. Speaker 5: All I can do is be a good example. And, you know, you gotta have, you gotta have [00:57:30] more than one kid to really recognize the degree to which they're just little insane balls of chaos that are gonna be whatever they're gonna be. Speaker 4: It's about just giving 'em a channel for the chaos, hopefully, if we do [00:57:40] it right. Speaker 5: Yeah. Speaker 6: Yeah. Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I, I can't appreciate enough you coming on and particularly coming on in a bit of short notice. I'm really hopeful for your book, and I can't. Wait [00:57:50] to stay connected with you to see where your career goes, just generally speaking. Speaker 5: Yeah, man. Let's stay in touch. Like, I've enjoyed this and I would, I would love to come on again, you know, and, uh, or, or, or [00:58:00] not come on and just bs about this stuff because, you know, I've enjoyed this and, and, you know, I, I hope, I hope, I hope that you're very successful and, and how all, [00:58:10] all this goes as well. Speaker 5: Thank you. You know, I, I, I think that your podcast, I've listened to a few of your episodes and I think, I think that you've got a very positive message and, uh, that's very kind. Thank you. I hope that it can do some good in the [00:58:20] world. One of the things that, you know, one of the kind of philosophical points that I really, it really dawned on me over the course of, of the writing endeavor is, uh.[00:58:30] Speaker 5: When you're gonna put ideas into the world, that's a massive responsibility. And you know, the human being, if I do so much as eat a cheeseburger, I'm [00:58:40] altered mm-hmm. In some way, but not, that's not nearly as profound as the alteration is when I interact with knowledge. And so the question is, you [00:58:50] know, whenever you interact with a certain type of knowledge, or if you're gonna put knowledge into the world, you're gonna put some information in the world, whether, whether you wanna call it knowledge or not, [00:59:00] you're gonna put information in the world. Speaker 5: When people interact with it all are, they're gonna be altered. So are they altered in a good way or not? And that's a, i I think if you're gonna, you're [00:59:10] gonna contribute to that, that's a, that's a huge responsibility. 'cause you're altering other people and they're gonna alter other people Speaker 4: as well. Speaker 4: Definitely felt that on the journey in getting these things [00:59:20] out. You know, like we were talking about before we recorded the. Being a clinician for 10 years, I'm really good at helping a person find what they need to find within themselves and give them what they need to be who they wanna [00:59:30] be, and figuring out how to distill that and give that to the people listening has been nerve wracking trying to make sure that it's done right. Speaker 4: So [00:59:40] I, I appreciate the pointing out the responsibility of putting thoughts into the world in productive ways. It's important, and I wish more people took it seriously. Yeah. [00:59:50] Speaker 5: Yeah. Well we're we, we can do our part. There we go. That's all we can do. Yeah. Speaker 4: And that's our conversation with Commander Spears. We started with a question where, somewhere you [01:00:00] are overusing armor and underusing awareness. Speaker 4: What's one thing you're gonna do differently this week if you're able share it in the comments and help some other guys find their answers to, if it's worth a [01:00:10] comment, please take a moment and subscribe and help us bring these conversations and help more men get better. And as always, we would like to fact check. Speaker 4: Nothing critically wrong in this episode, but there were two things worth adding some [01:00:20] nuance to. CBT is an evidence-based therapy that's been rigorously researched over the last few decades while else, and Beck, the founders of it, were certainly inspired by [01:00:30] stoicism. It's important to acknowledge that this isn't just a repackaging of stoicism. Speaker 4: And it's important to acknowledge that Stoicism got its start in Athens and 300 BC with Xeno, and then later got [01:00:40] adopted by Rome and widely used by the soldiers. You can find our full source list on the show notes on our website. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time when we talk about men's health and [01:00:50] testosterone.