Speaker: [00:00:00] What a physical aggression, high sex drive, risk taking and status seeking aren't toxic. 30,000 men search YouTube every month on healthy masculinity, and what they [00:00:10] find is polar. Either these traits are toxic and need to be closeted and contained to not hurt the people around you, or they need to be exhibited as loudly as possible for you to be seen as a [00:00:20] man.

Speaker: Both of these are wrong and both are incredibly destructive to the guys trying to be good men in the world. My name's Tim Winkey. I'm a licensed clinician with over 10 years of experience helping men, veterans, and first responders build [00:00:30] better lives, and I teach clinicians how to do the same. The frame isn't good or bad for these, it's effective or ineffective.

Speaker: The way I'm gonna help you is identify what I [00:00:40] mean when I say masculine trait. Why these four are listed as masculine traits by the data, and four ways to look at how they're showing up in your life to make sure that you're the men you want to be [00:00:50] and how to catch when they've gone too far and gotten toxic and separating you from the people and things that matter to you most.

Speaker: By doing this, we can remove the stigma that each of us [00:01:00] hold for having these parts of ourselves exist and give us effective channels on how to be the men we wanna be in the world. Whether you're here as a man trying to [00:01:10] become the man you wanna be, or someone who loves a man that wants to help him, by the end of this, you're gonna have more of what you need.[00:01:20]

Speaker: So when I say gendered trait, all [00:01:30] I mean is that more men tend to exhibit it than women. That's all. The easiest way to understand it is like talking about height. No one gets mad at me when I say that men are taller than [00:01:40] women. We all understand that there are short men and tall women, and we usually can grasp that at six one.

Speaker: If I go to A-W-N-B-A reunion, [00:01:50] I'm probably the short person in that room as a man. It doesn't mean that every man has every one. It doesn't mean that women can't have them. It just means that men tend to [00:02:00] exhibit these more and stronger than women. That's it. Putting a value judgment on them is like putting a value judgment on somebody being short as though they're a moral failing for something that they couldn't do [00:02:10] anything about.

Speaker: These are traits that we hold within us, and not every man has 'em all. In fact, in my experience, most guys don't. Most guys have two that are [00:02:20] really strong and really part of their masculinity. They have a third one that they do because it's how they were raised and kinda what their culture shaped them into.

Speaker: And then most guys have one of the four [00:02:30] that just doesn't line up at all. It doesn't make him any less of a man. It just means that that trait isn't part of his masculinity. And that's what's important about this. This is why that polar discussion is so [00:02:40] destructive, because either we're all toxic because almost every man has at least one of these, or none of us are manly enough because most of us [00:02:50] don't have all four.

Speaker: And that's why it's so important when you hear me talk about these traits, you think of it like I'm saying men are taller than women. That these simpler are things that [00:03:00] men tend to hold.

Speaker: So the first of those traits that men tend to hold is physical aggression. I'm pulling [00:03:10] this data and these traits from Richard Reeves' work on his book of Boys and Men. It's a great book. I'll link it in the show notes and I'll put a link to his interview with [00:03:20] diary va. It's like a two hour deep dive where he does a really good job of covering what he talks about in the book.

Speaker: For our purposes, we're gonna stick to his work on getting the data together around the [00:03:30] variations of gender and what he found, and for aggression, it was pretty star. At 17 months old, a male identified baby is five [00:03:40] times as likely to hit somebody as a female identified baby. And why that's so powerful to me is it showcases that that aggression is there before culture starts to influence and tell men and [00:03:50] boys that they're supposed to be aggressive.

Speaker: It's existing there from our larval state, from before. We can talk, before we even know our name. We can be aggressive. [00:04:00] 80% of all violent crime in the United States is committed by men according to the FBI, and that number tends to play out around the world. If we look at most militaries in the world, most fighting in the world, [00:04:10] most physically aggressive sports, they're all populated by men.

Speaker: And remember, doesn't mean that there can't be women in the military. Doesn't mean there aren't women fighters and women athletes that can whoop me. It just means [00:04:20] that when we look around, it's pretty transparent and clear that aggression tends to be masculine. So. As men are taller than women, men are more physically aggressive than women.

Speaker: So how [00:04:30] do we use our aggression in a way that's not toxic and connecting to the things in people that are important to us? The four things we're gonna look for, for all of the traits and how they're expressed are these [00:04:40] service, discipline, connection, and expression. We want these to be of service to the people in things that we care for.

Speaker: We want them to have discipline, some way that we know we're getting better and [00:04:50] channeling them in appropriate ways. We want them to be connected to the people around us and have a community around them, hopefully, and we want them to be expressed in a way that can be seen and appreciated by [00:05:00] others.

Speaker: Your gender identity is a key component to who you are, and when it can't be expressed, it hurts and men are no different. That's why that's gonna be so important. This is where our hobbies come in, [00:05:10] athletics. Competitive video games, martial arts, these were all great ways to channel that aggression. Let's take martial arts for example.

Speaker: We know it's can be of service, [00:05:20] right? If you're a person that knows how to be violent in the world and you are violently capable, you make people around you feel safe, you're not somebody that's vibrating with the violence and martial arts fun. There's a [00:05:30] reason why a lot of middle-aged guys all of a sudden end up in jiujitsu.

Speaker: It's a great way to refin some discipline and find an outlet to get physical. And most of [00:05:40] the time with martial arts, it's got a pretty good community attached to it. Don't get me wrong, there's toxic gyms out there, but you can find good ones with good people doing connected things and having a good time with it.[00:05:50]

Speaker: And it's expressed, even if it's just within the dojo or gym that you're in, other people will appreciate you getting better at it. So that's the hobby version and what happens if a [00:06:00] guy has it in such a strong way that it needs to be part of his vocation? There's nothing wrong with that guy. We need to stop pathologizing that guy.

Speaker: That guy needs to make this a bigger [00:06:10] part of his life than a hobby, though. This is where you find men that go into the military, that join the police force in first response, or get into athletics or [00:06:20] fighting as a profession. If you are one of those guys, you need these channels because without 'em, it gets dangerous.

Speaker: If you're a guy that's just vibrating with violence out in [00:06:30] the world and you're using it to control everything around you to feel safe, you're incredibly disconnected and lonely. It's a terrible way to be, and you're scaring people that matter to you. [00:06:40] Instead, if you find a uniform, if you find a way to be societally seen, doing what you're doing in a way that's effective and protective for the people around you.

Speaker: You valued. [00:06:50] The best way I like this framed was in a book called On Killing by David Grossman. He interviewed a bunch of combat vets on what it was like to kill in the world, and one of the guys spoke [00:07:00] about it like this. He said that he liked being a sheep dog, hanging out with a sheep on the sun and being around the safety, but he got very excited and he absolutely loved [00:07:10] when the wolves showed up and he got to show his teeth.

Speaker: Remember that just because this is in you doesn't mean it has to be outside of you all the time. It just needs to be held with service, [00:07:20] discipline, connection, and expression, so that way you can bring it forward powerfully when it's needed, and let it just exist when it's not. That's how aggression's [00:07:30] gonna show up in the world in an effective way that's gonna connect you with others and not risk your life and your freedom based on behaving badly with it.[00:07:40]

Speaker: The next trait that's easiest to see is that men had to be more sexual than women. My kind of best story around this is one stole directly from Reeves during an interview I saw him do. Did we [00:07:50] all remember that CEO that got busted during COVID for masturbating during a Zoom call? Almost every woman I spoke to about it was like, what kind of animal masturbates during work hours?

Speaker: And why would he need to during a [00:08:00] meeting? And most guys you talk to about it are like, why'd the idiot forget to turn off his camera? Men tend to be more sexual than women. Men have doubled the sexual thoughts that women have. We masturbate [00:08:10] four times as often as women do. Generally speaking, men want more sex.

Speaker: Women tend to want better sex. Men are more sexual. It's on our mind a lot more. It's in our body a lot more, [00:08:20] and that's very available and relevant. When you look at how same sex couples operate. Lesbians have the least amount of sex over a long-term relationship. [00:08:30] Heterosexuals have the medium and gay couples have the highest sex between.

Speaker: Lesbians can get so stark that there's something known as lesbian bed death, [00:08:40] where paired women no longer have sex. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of lesbians having a great sex life. I wanna be really clear here. It doesn't mean that there aren't gay men in sexless marriage. We're [00:08:50] talking about the general terms.

Speaker: Okay? Men tend to be more sexual than women. So what do we do with that? That question took me a while to answer. When I started up my practice, my [00:09:00] background before clinical work was working in sexual assault prevention and advocacy for survivors. And so when I put on my website men's issues, I assumed the guys would be [00:09:10] reaching out for career counseling, fatherhood, the male identity, and instead, I got an awful lot of calls from guys wondering why their penis wouldn't work the way that they wanted it to.

Speaker: So here we are all these years [00:09:20] later and more conversations around male sexuality than I can count, and I figured some things out. So in most guys. They're a little bit more sexual than their partner, and that's gonna [00:09:30] mean that they're more likely to be the pursuer. And so there's a lot of ways to have the framework land on that.

Speaker: So you are the person that's supposed to be shepherding the sexuality in [00:09:40] your relationship. You're the one that makes your partner feel wanted. You're the one that tracks and pursues. So what's that mean? Long term isn't just how many times a week are we having [00:09:50] sex? And it's not just we're in a monogamous relationship and you're my only outlet, so you must do these things.

Speaker: It's how is our relationship in the bedroom going? [00:10:00] What are we doing to maintain it? And getting that enthusiastic consent lets you know that you're being of service and that there's some discipline there. And that keeps that connection [00:10:10] going. It's more than just a count. It's more than just, we haven't had sex this week.

Speaker: What's going on? It's do we feel connected that way? And by framing it that way, we move from this very [00:10:20] commodified like, you're the woman, I'm the man. The sex needs to be part of a relationship. You need to provide it to, I love you, I'm connected with you, and I want a place to express that. And here's how that [00:10:30] expression matters.

Speaker: When you have that part of your relationship dialed in unhealthy, when you're the shepherd of that. People notice we've all been out at dinner with friends that have reconnected in that [00:10:40] way and been happy for them. And a lot of guys, when they see that and they see a buddy doing it, that talk to them about how, and you can be, that you can be that [00:10:50] example of healthy masculine sexuality in your friend group just by existing and making sure that it's expressed in healthy non performative ways.

Speaker: This doesn't mean being [00:11:00] explicit, and it doesn't mean like throwing your sexuality in the faces of everybody you're around. But when couples are connecting that way, it's pretty clear and it reminds other couples that that's what they want as well. [00:11:10] Be that guy in the group. Now, let's say that you're someone who's very sexual, that it's a pillar of who you are.

Speaker: All of a sudden, that frame of service, [00:11:20] discipline, connection, and expression becomes increasingly important because the frame and the container for you is gonna be key to having a healthy life with it. Whether that [00:11:30] means that you're in a monogamous relationship with someone that's similar to you, where you all are matching each other's energy.

Speaker: This is a key component to you all's relationship, or that you're doing one of the very many ways to [00:11:40] do ethical non-monogamy and safe, healthy, connected, and consenting ways. There's a lot of different opportunities here, and if you wanna explore them more, check out our kink episode over here. I'll link it up here.

Speaker: [00:11:50] The key there is finding communities and ways that that enthusiastic consent is maintained, that the discipline around who you are bringing this to matters. It's not that you [00:12:00] can't have multiple partners and be connected, it means that the partners that you are connecting with are there for more than just the sex.

Speaker: They're there for the connection attached to the sex. [00:12:10] So make sure that if you're that kind of person, that you're finding the right community that has structure, that has consent baked into its nature, and that you can be witnessed and be sex positive. [00:12:20] Oftentimes, when we think of sex positivity, we think of women being the leaders of it, and they largely have.

Speaker: Men can fill that space too. We're the more sexual partner in most cases. Why [00:12:30] aren't we the ones that are being sex positive and talking about enthusiastic consent and talking about connected and healthy sex? Be that person in your friend group or be a person in a [00:12:40] community where you're teaching that in some way, shape, or form.

Speaker: That's how we keep all of this from going toxic. That's how we keep this from being, my sexuality is being inflicted on the people around me. [00:12:50] My sexuality is meaning that I need X amount of partners to feel whole. It's about am I bringing this part of me forward in those connected ways? That's how we stop the toxicity of it, and that's how we [00:13:00] let that part of ourself, that very sexual powerful part of our masculinity come out into the world in beautiful and wonderful ways.

Speaker: Don't let it just be about knocking [00:13:10] notches on your belt. Be connected with the people and of service to the people that you're experiencing with, and your life is gonna be fantastically better.[00:13:20]

Speaker: When that brings us to a third trait, risk taking, probably the most misunderstood of the four traits because it's not one thing, it's actually two. There's different kinds of bravery, [00:13:30] and when you step back and look at who's being brave, where it becomes pretty easy to see the masculine version of bravery and the feminine version of bravery, and that most of us have [00:13:40] both.

Speaker: So one of the best examples of this is that men tend to be more physically and practically brave. We tend to take more physical risk. We tend to take more career [00:13:50] risk. We tend to be more willing to put ourselves and our wellbeing on the line for the things in people that matter to us. Women tend to be more emotionally and morally [00:14:00] brave.

Speaker: One of the best examples of physical bravery is gonna be the Carnegie Hero Fund, an award that's given out to people that were so brave that their lives are usually lost in the attempt to [00:14:10] save others. 66 of 71 recipients. We're men. These are people running into fires, jumping into floods, all in an effort to save other people at the risk to [00:14:20] themselves.

Speaker: Our young men are much more likely to run into a burning building to try to save people, even though we know that most of the time, if you're not trained to do so, you're not [00:14:30] coming out alive. I don't wanna live in a world where young men aren't willing to run in the fire for their commun. On the other end of that, women tend to be more morally brave.

Speaker: Women give twice as many kidneys as men do. [00:14:40] They tend to be the ones at the forefront of almost every major social change that's happened in this country. And when we look at what happened during World War II with the Underground Railroad, getting Jewish people out of Europe, [00:14:50] most of the families involved with that were led by women.

Speaker: And remember, this doesn't mean that men can't be morally brave and women can't be physically brave. That's not true. There's [00:15:00] plenty of military members that are women that are doing great work. There's plenty of first responders that are women doing great work, and there's plenty of women in dangerous jobs.

Speaker: We just look around and tend to seem mostly [00:15:10] men. On the other end of it, it doesn't mean that men can't be morally brave. We've had some great moral leaders that have been men in this country, and that will continue. But by acknowledging that [00:15:20] masculine is connected to that risk taking and that physical end of things, it gives us a chance to aim at a little bit better.

Speaker: So let's talk about why that is. The [00:15:30] justification for why men tend to be more physically brave is a little fraught. It goes back to procreation. For most of our history as a species, we were polyamorous, meaning that we were in [00:15:40] small groups where competing for genetic viability was incredibly competitive for men.

Speaker: A great psychologist once quoted that a society to procreate needs many [00:15:50] wombs and very few penises, and he wasn't wrong. We have twice as many female ancestors as we do male ancestors. A great example of this is Genghis Khan. One in [00:16:00] 200 people on the planet right now. Are related to Genghis Khan. I have no idea how the man had time to conquer Asia.

Speaker: It is a competitive way to bring our genetics forward, and in the modern [00:16:10] world, that's not as big of a deal. It's not as important as it used to be. We have a lot more access and a lot more even access to dating and procreation should we choose to, however. Most of our [00:16:20] genetics come from a time when that wasn't true.

Speaker: Another way that we can look at this is the frontal lobe development. I know there's a lot out there on men's brain development being behind women. It is, [00:16:30] at 19, we're at the farthest gap where women's brains on average are more developed than men's by the largest margin. This also times up with when men's testosterone is [00:16:40] at its highest in their lifetime.

Speaker: Almost any guy you talk to can look back at his late teens and early twenties and tell you about a time when they took an extremely large [00:16:50] physical risk and couldn't tell you why it happened. It's because their little undeveloped frontal lobe is being beaten on by a ton of testosterone to go [00:17:00] out and take those risks, to look for that excitement, to seek that thrill.

Speaker: Now remember as we're talking about this, we're talking about it like men are taller than women. There are plenty of women in extreme sports. There are plenty of women in dangerous [00:17:10] jobs, and there are plenty of guys that don't want anything to do with any of that. But now that we've named it, and we can acknowledge that risk taking in these ways is masculine, and risk taking in these ways [00:17:20] is feminine.

Speaker: It gives us a more powerful channel for what to do with them. So let's talk about that. What should we be doing with these? So just like the others, we really wanna make sure that we're using that four part [00:17:30] framework. Are we being of service? Can we have some discipline around how we use this? Is there an expression and a connection to guide the process for these things?

Speaker: And this is [00:17:40] incredibly important for risk taking because. It's a risk. It's kind of dangerous. So if it doesn't have some kind of channel and some kind of way to make sure that we're being of use with it, it can go pretty [00:17:50] sideways on us. So let's take me for example. Most guys find ways to get that adrenaline into their lives, and I was no different when I was young.[00:18:00]

Speaker: It was in MJ pits, heavy music, big guys knocking each other around. And the chaotic feeling of those shows really gave me an outlet for that. I felt the adrenaline. [00:18:10] And at the time when I was young it was great 'cause I had all this anger in me and I didn't know where to put it, and that was a safer place to put it.

Speaker: I could show up. There were big guys around. Everybody chose to be there, and we [00:18:20] were all knocking on each other around. And there was even a big social network of it. There were rules when you show up the first few times, bigger guys, older guys, they let you know the [00:18:30] rules and the ways that men do. And that worked great until my early twenties when I stopped being as angry as I was, all of a sudden mush, but starting to hurt more and it wasn't as fun for me.[00:18:40]

Speaker: From there, it was motorcycles. I was raised on them. My father rode motorcycles. My earliest memory was holding his gas tank as we took a ride together, and so in addition to just [00:18:50] feeling the freedom and the risk of being on a motorcycle, it also connected me to the men of my life, and that's been beautiful throughout my life.

Speaker: When I was young, my riding was chaotic and [00:19:00] very unsafe. The older I got, the more things I had to care about, the more careful I got with myself and my motorcycle riding Now. That's enabled me to do things like ride all [00:19:10] over the country. I really like the long rides. I like the freedom of it. Motorcycles are arguably dumb though.

Speaker: Talk to any back surgeon in the world and they'll tell you that they don't like riding motorcycles because they're so afraid of [00:19:20] this. Now that I'm older, the physical risks aren't as important to me anymore. I, I don't need that adrenaline spike as much and the motorcycle doesn't. Plenty, but I still need to [00:19:30] feel like I'm pushing something, like I'm taking a risk.

Speaker: And now for me, that's public speaking. I know it sounds a little silly when compared to mosh pits and motorcycles, but when I look into this camera. If I don't [00:19:40] feel a little bit nervous, if I don't feel an adrenaline spike, it's probably a bad sign because it means I don't care enough to do this. Well, when I get up in front of a few hundred or a thousand people, you [00:19:50] feel that it's exciting, I feel it in the pit of my stomach.

Speaker: It makes me want to do something well, because I'm at risk. These people are paying to see me. I'm in front of all these folks, and if I don't do [00:20:00] it well, that's going to have a professional impact on me. Most guys you talk to will name similar things for them. They'll change over the course of their lifetime from when they're younger to when they're older, just [00:20:10] because our body has different needs.

Speaker: But for most of us, we find ways to get that adrenaline out. And most of the time, most guys do pretty well [00:20:20] without even really thinking about it to make sure they're of service, that they have some kind of discipline to them, that they can be expressed in a visible way, and that they're connected to other people.

Speaker: A lot of these risk taking hobbies [00:20:30] have huge communities around them. That's gonna be important because without all that, we start doing dangerous things for no reason. So take me for the motorcycle, for example, [00:20:40] if I'm just speeding everywhere and I'm riding without safety gear, why? What happens if I'm lost?

Speaker: What happens if I wreck the people that need me? The people that depend on me, the [00:20:50] community I wanna be of service to loses me all because I need an adrenaline bump. Not because I was in a rush to get somewhere for something important, not because I was on a track [00:21:00] improving my skill at riding, but because I decided in this moment without much thought that I needed something exciting to do.

Speaker: Let's say that instead of MJ pits, I found bar fighting. [00:21:10] It's fairly similar depending on the bar you're in, but that's a lot more dangerous that can get me arrested, and that's a lot more dangerous. People are there to hurt you as opposed to knock each other around. [00:21:20] If I go into that, I'm risking my physical ability.

Speaker: I'm risking my freedom and the education that I got to come here and do these things. We need these channels to make sure that the ways that we [00:21:30] find to get this part of ourselves out. Work well and the further professional risks, right? This public speaking, if it goes really, really badly, that could maybe affect my practice, but it's pretty [00:21:40] unlikely at this point that something pretty spectacular would have to happen for that to impact my clinical work.

Speaker: And the way I look at that is like business guys, guys that wanna take that big risk, those [00:21:50] entrepreneurs that wanna take those big swings, there's nothing wrong with those guys. We need those guys. That's how we get businesses going. However, if they're not bracing their family's finances, if they're not making sure that they're [00:22:00] taken care of, regardless of how this gamble they're taking out in the business world goes, they're not living up to what they're supposed to be for their people and their communities.

Speaker: And that's why this channel is so important. So [00:22:10] that's most guys. Let's talk about the outliers now, just like we have before, let's say that risk taking is gonna be a pillar of who this man is or this woman is. For these folks, they need something more than a [00:22:20] hobby. They need it to be part of their world.

Speaker: And maybe that's an extreme sports right out here in Colorado, we got a lot of 'em. A lot of people live for the mountains and go and do silly [00:22:30] things in them all the time, but they do so. With community, with safety gear, there's a lot of ways and rules and social norms to be good at taking those [00:22:40] risks.

Speaker: And they put themselves in positions where they're teaching those risks. These are the guys that become ski patrol. They become ski instructors. They go to climbing gyms and be a guy that knows how to lead a [00:22:50] climb and guy to climb. Let's say that that's not enough. Maybe the military is where these guys are gonna go.

Speaker: The military's certainly risky. There's all kinds of crazy stuff we do in the military, but it's of [00:23:00] service, and it's channeled and it's guided. It's something that you can get good at. It's something that you can become mentored at. These are important for those guys if risk is gonna be a [00:23:10] key component to who they are and how they need to be in the world.

Speaker: They need to be in a place where there's mentorship, there's service, there's discipline around how to do it well. And particularly the more [00:23:20] dangerous it is, the more discipline we need around it to make sure that it's done as well as possible. So that way you can improve your social status with it. Be the person that [00:23:30] teaches it, be the person that gets good at it.

Speaker: Be the person that gets a few online videos for it, maybe whatever that is for you, but be someone who's setting an example for other guys on how to do it well. And that [00:23:40] also connects us. It gives that community and it's expressed in a way that people see it and it's really, really powerful. So just like the others, most guys are gonna have a little bit of these [00:23:50] things.

Speaker: For the guys that have that pillar relationship with it, where they really need to put it forward, they're going to need more structure around it to make sure that it follows that service, discipline, expression, [00:24:00] and connection. If you're one of those guys. Don't be someone in the wind with it. Find community, find other people doing the crazy things that you want to go do, and make sure that [00:24:10] you're doing them in such a way that you can keep having fun with them for the rest of your life.

Speaker: It's a long life if you do it right and there are people that love you and need you. And so [00:24:20] having these set up where you've got the things you need to keep going, you're gonna live a more fulfilled life and. That's gonna be a lot more fun in the long run than one [00:24:30] time doing something silly down a hill without the safety gear, without the protocols that you need.

Speaker: So that's risk taking.[00:24:40]

Speaker: And now it's time for our fourth and final trade status seeking. Status seeking is masculine, and we know that because of the structures that men have built over time. [00:24:50] Patriarchy is something that was constructed by men because we value status. It's gone too far, it's toxic, and it's not in [00:25:00] service to a world that we have and something that we need to deal with.

Speaker: But there's a reason why it was built in the first place. And there's three key data factors I wanna cover to highlight why that [00:25:10] is. The first one is our testosterone. Our testosterone levels go up or down based on the wins and losses that we experience the way that we're publicly seen. And the way [00:25:20] that that is expressed to us directly impacts our testosterone.

Speaker: There's a reason why high status males have affairs and late life children, Al Pacino, various senators and such, [00:25:30] and there's a reason why you feel so poorly for so long after a major hit, like getting passed up for a promotion, being broken up with and being shamed [00:25:40] publicly, all physically impact the way that we're responding to the world.

Speaker: The second data point that highlights, this is the social dominance orientation. There was a study that looked across [00:25:50] 40 different countries and looked at how men and women seek social structures, and men tend to lean towards hierarchical structure. If you look at most masculine organizations. [00:26:00] This plays out.

Speaker: They tend to be hierarchical and structure because we form them faster and we settle into them sooner than women often do. Women tend to choose more [00:26:10] egalitarian structures. And remember as we talk about this, we're talking about it like men are taller than women, right? There are plenty of women that lean into hierarchy and plenty of guys that lean into more [00:26:20] equity.

Speaker: But overall, men seek hierarchy for that safety and for that status check. And the third data point to cover is how men respond [00:26:30] emotionally to status threat. Our emotional responses tend to be bigger than women's. The shame, fear, and anger that we experience on status threat is very well documented. In [00:26:40] my experience, my most visceral responses in the world have been over status threat, and that's largely true for most of the guys I work with.

Speaker: Most guys [00:26:50] have been in some way physically hit hurt. That's not what we tend to stick to. We tend to stick to the social loss. We remember the breakup, the [00:27:00] embarrassment, the lessening of ourselves in front of a social group. Those are the things that tend to stick to guys and where a lot of my clinical work ends up focusing on healing.

Speaker: There's a reason for that. [00:27:10] Our body is built on the idea that if we do not have status, we do not have access to procreation, and we do not have the resources required [00:27:20] to be safe. So our whole system around status seeking is built for a world that no longer exists. So that's why we've gotta figure out how to channel it so that we can [00:27:30] break outta the structures of patriarchy, which are hurting men and women and everybody else.

Speaker: And to do so effectively by acknowledging that status is important to a lot of guys, and there's [00:27:40] nothing toxic about that. It just needs to be channeled and done well. So let's talk about how to do that. The first one is career progression. The first question almost [00:27:50] every American man gets, anytime he's socializing is, what do you do?

Speaker: And that's part of why our career and our professional status matters so much. It's literally baked into the social fiber of how we engage [00:28:00] the world. For some guys, it's their physical fitness. These are the guys that wanna be seen as big, they go to the gym, they lift a heavy thing, they do the things to really lean into their [00:28:10] physicality and get status for that.

Speaker: Next one is, we got finance. The collection of money, the acquisition of the security that money brings, and the status symbols that that money [00:28:20] showcases. These are the guys that need the nice cars, nice clothes, nice watches, et cetera, to showcase how they've been successful in the world and that they hold the status of that financial [00:28:30] success.

Speaker: Next one is gonna be social. These are gonna be your influencers, your church members, your deacons, basically any role in which money isn't necessarily changed hands. Might [00:28:40] be, but not always. But it's socially recognized as a higher status that people want to know you. And the next one is intellectual.

Speaker: Being a guy that's a thought leader, somebody who [00:28:50] establishes researches, problem solves. Does the things required to expand out human knowledge a little bit more in visible ways? And most guys are [00:29:00] gonna find a variation of these aspects are how they exhibit. Chase down status in their life, and none of them, not one is inherently toxic.

Speaker: They [00:29:10] can all go badly, but they can also all go really well. We need people to lead, to build, to push us forward, and that's [00:29:20] what status seekers often do. So for the guys that this is gonna be a pillar of your masculinity, the ones where your status more than anything else is gonna matter to your masculinity.

Speaker: The [00:29:30] channel becomes so important, and this is where we wanna go back to that frame. Is it of service? Is it connected? Does it have discipline? And can it be expressed [00:29:40] in a way that's seen? So for me, when I'm dealing with this, I'm thinking about the podcast a lot lately. I've wanted a platform like this for a long time.

Speaker: I like [00:29:50] talking about the things I like talking about. I like being seen as an expert in the space as I'm in. But there's a reason why I waited till I had 10 years of clinical experience working with guys under my belt [00:30:00] before I started recording this republic consumption. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't just a guy seeking status, that I was somebody who was bringing something of value.

Speaker: And yeah, the [00:30:10] status of this matters to me. There's a reason why I'm putting myself in front of you. It's because I wanna help and I wanna be seen helping. For guys I work with, the kind of highest performing ones are gonna be the [00:30:20] CEOs and C-suite guys I work with, and almost all of 'em come in with this singular drive.

Speaker: Them and professional athletes where all I want is this [00:30:30] singular goal and I'm gonna put everything I have behind it and into it, and those guys end up pretty lonely. If you talk to most CEOs, it's a lonely spot to be in. They feel very disconnected from their [00:30:40] world. They're working so much and doing so much that the rest of their life has kind of fallen apart.

Speaker: And so with a lot of those guys, a big part of our work is reaming their status, seeking [00:30:50] to have a balance with. The leadership they're building, the companies they're building, the profession they're building, and why they're building it, who's it of service to? [00:31:00] How does it impact their dear ones? How does it impact themselves and what's a sustainable way to keep it going?

Speaker: The other kinda guys that this tends to come up with are first responders and military guys when I [00:31:10] work with them, these are service oriented people. They want to be seen in the world being of help, but the first thing we've gotta do is identify their values. What about the service is [00:31:20] drawing them into it?

Speaker: Just like with the CEOs, the why question becomes so important, and then once they have the answer, once they have their values locked in and they know why they're in this uniform and they know why they're seeking the ways [00:31:30] they're seeking, all of a sudden they start going for promotions. Most of the guys I work with end up going from frontline workers to leaders because they find that [00:31:40] space in their world that lines with their values that they wanna be seen doing.

Speaker: This is why the framework is so important. It's okay that you want money. It's okay that you wanna be a [00:31:50] leader. It's okay that you wanna get an influencer status. All of that's fine, as long as it's balanced within your community. There's a why to it, and there's a purpose [00:32:00] behind what power you wanna hold and the power you're reaching for and the things you want to do with it.

Speaker: The main problem here is we get so focused on the status that we forget why [00:32:10] we want it. We forget what we wanna be doing with it and we chase it so hard. We leave the people behind that we were building it for in the first place. It's not uncommon [00:32:20] for older guys to come in late in their career to talk about why their kids hate them.

Speaker: They're like, I do everything. I got this kid. Everything, everything in their world, they have nothing to want. And it's because I worked [00:32:30] so hard. And it's because their kids want them around. They miss their dad. The stuff is great, the security of all that is great, but they miss their father. Don't let the drive for [00:32:40] status push you into leaving behind all the things you want the status for.

Speaker: That's kind of what patriarchy has done to us. That's why I talked about it at the first part of this [00:32:50] section. The idea of patriarchy in part is built around the idea that a man is only his labor. And when we're only our labor and there's nothing of service, of [00:33:00] connection, of discipline behind the ways that we're expressing that it goes really badly for us, not just the people we're shoving down to get there.

Speaker: So watch that. Use this [00:33:10] framework. Take a look at where you are in your life and the status that you are seeking, and make sure that it's got that frame. How are you being of service? Who is it connecting to you? [00:33:20] Why is it being expressed in the way it's being expressed? And is it good? And can you be disciplined in how you achieve it and chase it down?

Speaker: If you do those things, you're [00:33:30] not just gonna be a leader, you're gonna be a healthy human being who leads, and that's the goal with these. Not to shame the fact that you want status, but to aim the fact that you want [00:33:40] status. So let's talk about how to aim it with that frame. The first one is, who is your status of service to?

Speaker: Is it just your ego? Do you get upset when other people [00:33:50] perform well? Is it always about winning the competition instead of the goal being achieved? Leadership should be in service to a goal, not just [00:34:00] about your ego and pumping you up to the biggest thing you can be. The next one is that discipline. Are you killing everything else to reach this [00:34:10] status?

Speaker: If so, your discipline and your organization are going to burn you out. You're moving into that grind culture instead of that work ethic. [00:34:20] Grit is important. We've talked about it on the show. We've had other episodes on it, and. It needs to be disciplined. It needs to be balanced with those social connections and the healing that you [00:34:30] need to keep pushing on the hard things that you need to push on for your status.

Speaker: If all it is is the one thing and there's no discipline around making space for the rest of your life, you're probably moving to [00:34:40] toxic territory. And connection's. The next one, who are you around? Are the people that are seeking this status with you, people that you wanna be around, people that share your values?

Speaker: Do the people in your [00:34:50] life that don't work with you, that don't care about what you're doing, still value what it is you're bringing into the world? Can they still see you through the status you're seeking? If it starts to [00:35:00] disrupt your ability to connect with those around you in every aspect, this isolation is going to become toxic, and it's gonna make you lose empathy for people to include yourself.

Speaker: It's gonna [00:35:10] make your life so brittle because this is the one aspect that you have to hold yourself together. Look around and make sure that you're connecting with those people and things that are important to you. And [00:35:20] the last one is, can it be witnessed? The expression of it, how is it being expressed?

Speaker: Are you a guy that's going into a ton of debt to have the showcases and trappings of wealth instead of actually going and [00:35:30] getting the wealth? Are you doing things where it's more important to be seen doing them than it is to be doing them? And how do you know? If you're overextending [00:35:40] financially, if you're consistently talking about the power you hold, instead of just being in the power you hold, you're doing it wrong.

Speaker: Anytime someone says they're a [00:35:50] big deal, no one believes they're a big deal. If all it is is flash and no substance behind it, you're damaging yourself. You're making your actual goals of financial security and [00:36:00] being seen as financially secure, go slower. Take a look at your priorities. Take a look at where you're spending your time and your money and make sure that it's [00:36:10] expressed in a way that showcases where you are and what you're doing instead of where you're trying to be and where you think you're going.

Speaker: That's how we avoid the toxicity, and that's [00:36:20] how we step back from that patriarchal concept that we are just what we do instead of what we do matters. If you do these things, it's gonna go really [00:36:30] well for you. The guys I work with do so much better, are so happier, and their work improves. My work improved.

Speaker: If I'd have tried to do this podcast 10 years [00:36:40] ago, I'd have just been blowing smoke. I would've been unconfident. I would've been giving you bad information at times, and I would've felt like an imposter because I would've been one. So make [00:36:50] sure that if you're a person that's seeking status, you're running through these metrics to make sure that what you're chasing is a value to you and an alignment with who you wanna be.

Speaker: As [00:37:00] we finish up, I want you to remember that if status doesn't resonate with you. That's fine. Remember, most guys have two, maybe three of these, very few have all four, and if you only have [00:37:10] one, that's fine too. The point of these isn't that these are men's traits. It's that they're masculine traits, which means that women and folks that aren't binary can have 'em as well.

Speaker: The [00:37:20] important part is to acknowledge that they're not toxic, that there's nothing inherently wrong with being a person that wants these things or has these things in them. By doing that, we open up the door to so many [00:37:30] guys that have been told that either. They're not men enough because they don't held all four, or that there's something inherently wrong with them for wanting any of these things.

Speaker: That's what [00:37:40] we wanna move away from. We wanna leverage the knowledge of scholars like Richard Reeves into practical, useful skills that we can bring forward and better our world with. So for you, after [00:37:50] watching this, what's one of the traits that really resonates with you? Take that in and think about it.

Speaker: Think where you wanna put your energy, and then place the frame and make sure that the ways that you're bringing it into your world are [00:38:00] the most effective and connected they can. I promise you, your life is gonna get better and it's gonna let you drop the ones that don't fit you, the ones that don't resonate, the ones that you've had to [00:38:10] force your way through.

Speaker: You don't need to just be the man you are in the best way possible, and your world is gonna get fantastic. If you can leave me a [00:38:20] comment or message, let me know which one of these is working and how the frame might change, how you approach it. As always, this is Tim Winneke with American Masculinity, thanking you for being here and wishing you the very best of [00:38:30] [00:38:40] days.